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Old April 18 2009, 04:40 AM   #748
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Location: Ireland
Re: A Hater Revisits Voyager

DISCLAIMER: It is 03:47 and I am rather drunk after having just arrived home. I am ignoring the advice I normally give while sober (that you should never post after drinking) in order to defend my honour, so please excuse any typos or sentences which don't make any purple banana sense monkey.

Jimmy Bob wrote: View Post
Hello sir, I'm here to say that you are wrong.
It wouldn't be the first time.

But first... let me congratulate you on your excellent thread.

In fact it was because of you I became a regular reader of this place...
Oh, I'm sorry. I'll try to make it up to you some day.

...but you managed to irritate me enough with your complete disregard of Remember.
It wasn't complete disregard, I gave it 3/10 and thought out two posts on why I found it lacking. If you want to see an episode which I completely disregarded then take a look at my review of Threshold.

So sir, you are so wrong that you give all people who are wrong a bad name.
Yeah, but I also give people called Ben a bad name. And I give Irish people a bad name. Actually, I give a bad name to anybody who can be associated with me. And tortoises, for some odd reason which I could never figure out.

You are wrong because Remember is one of the best Voyager episodes yet.
I disagree, but do go on.

Firstly, it gave the actor actual acting gig - Roxanne really became that girl - which I've noticed Voyager doesn't too very often.
Yes, she played the role very nicely, that earned the episode 1 star.

Secondly, the "Yes! Yes! Yes!" scene was beautiful poetic "shit bitch" moment.
I don't remember that scene, so obviously it didn't have an impact upon me.

Thirdly - since quite a few countries in the world don't admit their parts in genocides, war crimes, participations in bad things (funding other governments who solve poverty by killing the poor for example) and prefer to portray themselves as "the good folk who are obviously blessed by God and righteousness" - or even if they admit, they still prefer to continue with righteousness attitude and just shrug it off as a necessity of progress or something else (all these things took place in this episode in some form or another) - it's the role of a socially responsible entertainer/artist to remind that this still exists and is still going on. Just about any book on historiography will give great examples of these things.
And the idea to explore this issued earned the episode its second star. (Remember, half a star was deducted due to being a TNG-style episode.)

Also, Star Trek - being a socialist utopia of fairness and justice - could never say things like "in some cases though, genocide is great fun - like killing injuns for example, because who of us don't like them good old John Wayne movies" as you seem to be implying what you wanted to see in the episode.
Now I'm lost.

If you are referring to my joke about wanting to kill all conservative people then that was a joke, as evidenced by the fact that I was advocating killing millions of innocent people.

And I've never watched a single John Wayne film.

So obviously genocide is wrong in Trek-universe...
Genocide is wrong in most universes. Except maybe that universe with the Clangers, we could do without those bastards and their constant whistling.

...because building rightousness and romantical images of idyll on the dead raped bodies of your innocent victims is called bullshit and a wrong one too.
Lots of modern democracies saw vile acts during the struggle for their foundation, including my own. That doesn't make the acts right, but it doesn't invalidate the society which forms from them.

And I didn't feel as Remember was preachy or anything. It just showed it.
And that is the big problem with the episode; it just showed it. There was no evidence that these acts ever occurred, all we have to support this version of history is the telepathically transplanted memory of an old woman close to death. My grandmother has enough trouble remembering what she did last week, I certainly wouldn't expect her to remember events which happened when she was a teenager.

If the episode had used the memories as the jumping-off point to find evidence of the massacre then it would be fine, but instead the episode saw fit to judge a whole society based on little more than an emotional plea. That's not good enough.

It was more of an illustration of all similar situations in earth history. That B'Elanna storms the party to say "Bullshit is what you say and bullshit is what you are!!!" didn't feel to me as we were supposed to rage with fury with B'Elanna. I mean, Janeway facepalmed... with just her eyes, but it were those "facepalm" eyes.
Except in the scene in the ready-room Janeway clearly supports B'Elanna and it seems very much like as if Janeway has decided to end relations with the aliens as quickly as possible. That is how I read that scene.

And another thing - to say that Janeway treating those aliens harshly after B'Elanna is like treating a young teenager jap wrong because of WWII because is the same is wrong, because that episode strongly indicated, that the old aliens were directly involved in those events.
Once again, there is no evidence to back this up.

DS9's Duet is a fantastic episode which has been praised enough on this board. When Kira believes that the Cardassian they have locked up was involved in the massacre at Galitep she prematurely judges him and she wants him to die for his crimes. But that episode used the emotional reaction as the beginning of an investigation into the man's identity and he was eventually found to be innocent.

You should never judge somebody based on premature conclusions, and you certainly shouldn't judge them based purely on an emotional reaction.

Sacred Grounds sucks, but it's better than Remember.
I don't remember saying that, and I actually gave both episodes the same score; two stars, half a star deducted for being TNG-lite.

Okay, it is 04:33 now, time for some sleep, methinks. Thank you for reading and good night!
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"No one is actually dead until the ripples they cause in the world die away." - The immortal Terry Pratchett
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