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Old March 26 2009, 08:40 PM   #83
Hermiod's Avatar
Re: Joss Whedon and the blurry line between homage and appropriation

Sci wrote: View Post
You seem to be arguing that women are portrayed more positively than men, but they're really not. As I said before, pretty much every Whedon character is a complex moral actor with both good and bad points to them.
The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Sure. And you could argue that Buffy is a selfish, arrogant girl who simultaneously thinks she's better than all her friends and thinks she's inferior to them. And Willow is a needy, co-dependent goody-two-shoes who went psycho the first time she faced real trauma in her life. And Anya's guilty of countless murders. And Dawn's just frickin' irritating. And Fred reacted to her capture in Pylea by manipulating all the men around her to be protective of her instead of being sensible and being protective of herself. And Cordelia, goodness knows, was arrogant and had a shallow streak in her until the day she died (white light automatically means "good?" and how arrogant are you for assuming they're telling you the truth in saying they want to elevate you to a higher plane?) And Harmony was always shallow and selfish, and later a multi-murderer. And...

You see what I'm saying? All of Whedon's characters, male and female, have good and bad traits, and it's inaccurate to imply that he only gives bad traits to male characters.
I never said that, I said the bad traits he gives to female characters are all too often easily excused and quickly forgotten about. Sure, there's Glory or Darla (and even she had her little redemption arc), I'm not saying he can't write truly bad women, it's just that he and the writers working for him try very hard to excuse what they do.

Part of the point of the episode "Selfless" is that that's no excuse at all.
She spent a thousand years killing men because one cheated on her, but that's okay, she said sorry. At least Angel had his curse.

I'll concede that, but you could just as easily argue that Liam of Galway losing his soul constitutes the same thing.
Not even slightly the same. Liam was a useless, lazy drunk. Angelus was not the monster he was purely because of Darla, but Drusilla was the monster she was because of Angelus. She has a built in excuse.

And as I said, even Darla had a whole big deal redemption storyline. When they did the same thing with Spike they just swapped a monster for the other problem - he became a spineless wimp.

1. Her best friend died in payment for those victims' resurrection.

2. She was lost and in pain and guilt the rest of the series.
Her "best friend" was a Vengeance Demon who enjoyed her job. As for her "pain and guilt", you really must have been watching a different show.

And then accepted back into the group. How exactly does this differ from Anya's arc (except that Wes didn't actually kill anyone)?
The fact that he didn't kill anyone!!! Angel tried to kill him and kicked him out of the group for trying to protect Connor and nearly getting killed for it.
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