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Old February 23 2009, 03:37 PM   #28
Re: Sovereign Class and Photon Torpedoes

Draco, I hope you realize that in this and your other thread, the stats are, at best, vaguely based off back-stage info, which are merely one possible interpretation.

Really, what are you expecting? From any set of base assumptions you can come up with anything. For example, I don't believe the Sovereign is anything particularly special or "war-like", or that the quantum torpedo is anything particularly special, etc., etc., etc..

Even if the Sovereign has sparkling new fancy junk, it goes without saying that newer ships tend to get newer things faster, because older ships have to wait for their next refit. (Which also makes for interesting situations where older ships fresh out of refit are actually "newer" than newer ships.)
ok ok true, but the only thing I really said that hasn't been confiremd is some Technical manual or on screen at some point is the changes
made in nemisis, and the evidence is pretty solid there, it's obvious she was beefed up, I think with that, it's very hard
to arue the new phaser arrays, only the torps are really up for question and even then, the case against them isn't good, because
either they are there as observed from Nemisis or we have some really bad mistakes going on in the film...

many sources have said it's type XII arrays, as well as the original torps...

so lets be conservative here, and reduce the added weapons actual forget all of them lets go with the original configuration

which is:

12 Type XII Arrays
1 Quantum Torpedo Turret
4 Photon torp launchers (I'm assuming 2fore two 2aft but I don't remember where they where)

so we just lost 4 arrays and 4 launchers, bummer but thats still more than enough to outmatch the 3
launchers as shown in the TNG Technical manual, and I'm pretty sure one of those isn't available when the ship
has both sections docke, meaning only used after saucer separation...

also, yes she's new so yes she'll have new tech but, the Akira was new, she didn't have Quantums nor Type XII phasers..... and she was built for war
in fact, discounting the Prommy, which is a prototype, only the Defiant and Sovy have Quantums and only the Sovy has the new phasers.

ok now theres a lot of replies here so I'll try to answer them all hope I don't miss anything...

but first of all, saucer separation, while a Tactical advantage wasn't designed so much for Multi-Vector Assualt as it was to
get the civilians (aboard the saucer) out of harms way in case of a warp core breach or large battle, thats why despite this
the Prommy was the first ship credited with MVA, also of note, remember how long it took to separate? not good lol

We have seen Sovereign in battle in all her movies so far, and I have never seen her dish out the punishment like the Galaxy class could. Small torpedo launchers that Sovereign has are there so that she can make up for the other small ones. She doesn't have anything like the massive 50 meter launchers that Galaxy has

The fact that she is the most advanced ship keeps her level with Galaxy, it doesn't give her a large advantage like some think, but sheer raw power of (War) Galaxy should be match for a Sovereign, whether she has families or not doesn't come into play.
50 meter launchers? first of all I doubt they are 50 meters which is what, roughly 150ft? actaully I think more that that because 1 meter isn't exactly 3 foot but more

yeah even for the size of the Galaxy, I doubt there that big, especially with all the facilities she has...

but bigger =/= better, and again the Galaxy only has 3 luanchers, 2 available when not seperated
compared to the Sovys Turret plus 8 launchers (4 launchers being conservative)

We've never seen the Sovereign fire multiple torpedoes at once
oh are you talking about the launcher or the Turret, because they liked firing two Quantums from that turret an awefull lot...

as for the other launchers, it's hard to say, if we just assume that since most launchers of the era could fire 2 at a time (tubes being only one)
then.... thats allot of torpedoes, but if we just tone that down to one.. and take the 4/sec rating they gave us for the turret...

we have have thease values, and these are just forward salvos btw)

(non upgraded sec luancher 1) 4+2= 6 torps
(non upgraded sec laucher 2) 4+4= 8 torps
(upgraded 1 per launcher) 4+3= 7 torps
(upgraded 2 per launcher) $+6 = 10 torps

even if you take the smallest value, thats twice the Galxays combined fore and aft launchers...

and I jjust listed the Sovs foward ones, unupgraded has 2 aft and and upgraded 5 aft

so... you have +2-4 more torps counting aft unupgraded and 5-10 more counting upgraded, she's a beast lol

now I doubt we will ever see all of them fire at once, because of firing arcs and load time...

However, there is one bit of possible evidence that the Sovereign has been upgraded. Is First Contact, she showed bubble shielding and in Nemesis she showed the skin tight shielding seen in the battle scenes in DS9.
good point, allthough I wonder if thats just a setting, Conformal shielding I do believe it's called, because I remember reading about it somewhere...but I dunno I'll look it up later tonight

The ship splits in two. There's a battle section. If they wanted the other section to be in the fight also, they could probably, you know, offload noncombat personnel. I assume they did this for all the Galaxy-class ships we saw fighting in the war.

I also want to note that they didn't seem to hesitate sending the Enterprise-D into dangerous combat situations, despite the presence of families and such, and I don't think there is much evidence to suggest they impede combat performance in and of themselves.
sure you can offload them but if the Galaxy was designed to compliment whole families, I seriously doubt a rather militaristic stance was taken when
they designed her...

well theres going to always be risk exploring the unknown, but theres a difference between a tense moment or
being caught of gaurd and all out war... how many times have they thought they where safe and all and then plot twist and theres no time to evacuate...?

Yes, I'm sure the diplomats are very cramped, finding anywhere to meet on a ship nearly two and a half million cubic meters in volume. I imagine there isn't even a place for them to have diplomatic receptions LIKE THE ONE THEY HAD IN INSURRECTION WHEN THEY WERE ON A DIPLOMATIC MISSION
look, I never said the Sovy had absolutly no diplomatic capabilities, I just said it doesn't have the vast accomdations of a Galaxy, size isn't all to that,
spacious and luzurious quarters help ease tension, cramped no, comfortable? probably more so if they where on a Galaxy class...

and yes, the Sovy will still have scientific facilites and what not, the Enterpise is an explorer by nature, but military prowess was obviously a big concern...

you don't want to have to mothball a hip that new and of that size after wartime... but she was designed with the Bord the Dominion and other threats in mind,

so while war wasn't a big consideration with the Galaxy, it was with the Sovy being one of it's design specifications, rivaling
the importance for exploration, but no it's not 100% reserved for war like say the Defiant

X+ would, I expect, be equivalent to Type-11, like DS9 got; you're using Technical Manual talk here, but the Tech Manual put those at the top of the scale. Type XII is just fanwank. Fanwank has its place, but do I think a ship designed a number of years before the DS9 upgrades has phasers bigger than what starbases were being fitted with at the time of her design? What sense does that make? What's "new" about the warp core?
heh, X+ plus could be type XI but chances are it isn't, but regardless of what X+ should be equivalent to...whats so bad about the Techhnical manual? which isn't the only source btw to make the connection.. but regardless if we are oing to argue
about weather the Sovy has type XII phasers... there are amny sources that state that, in fact they neerly all do, I can't think of one that
says something different, one of them if I can remember right, clearly being Star Trek The Magazine issue 1, I forget which publication mentioned
the new warp core, probably one of the Technical manuals, which again... I really don't see a problem with, as from what all i can tell, they are accurate expect maybe
some typos that may be hiding I haven't found a problem with them..

in fact I'm looking at my copy right now, it obviously met Roddenberry's aproval, he did the Intro, and looky there,
by RICK STERNBACH, who worked for Roddenbarry, during TNG, made desigen the Galor class, the Intrepid, the Promethius, various PADDs and the like, hmm
how much more Cannon can you get?

and I said starbases and ouposted previously used them, many no doubt still do but if they can fir on a starship now, I would assume there are even more powerfull arrays on them like
the ones DS9 has, bacause DS9 has many phasers, not all of them are type XI, I wish I had my ds9 stuff with me, moving sucks ...

She very well may be; I don't know why you'd feel so sure about this. Impulse maneuverability probably isn't vastly important for a target nearly 700 meters long; it isn't as if there is a tremendous amount of dodging about she can do versus phaser beams or torpedoes and so forth that travel at c or greater. I'm sure it's always desirable, even for ships that will never fire a shot in anger.
ehh well, every little bit helps, you're right the it's negligable unless say your opponent is as bulky as the Galxy lol, but seriously, I think it's more of a harder-to-hit mind set...

Those sources (who?
many like, Star Trek The Magazine, issue 1, Eneterprise E briefing,

as for it taking time yes, yes it would, but not all designs are set in stone during developement it's an on-going process, as we've seen adapting launchers for Quantums or
say the automodulated shielding that was developed quickly and installed on most newer ships... as a borg counter-measure,
now even in DS9, it didn't take years for them to create a countermeasure for the "shield peircing" poleron beams... it seems that it really doesn't take them long to progress, as for
a whole ship design, proects are mothballed, brought back out, and again I forgot which book mentioned the warp core but,
it also mentioned that that was a stalling point...

so as their building this ship, as a future propsoal for severe threats, things happen that influence to design as it's being developed obviously, I mean when they tell you it's designed to combat
threats like the borg and the dominion ok, but that doesn't mean the whole design is to combat one major power... r that thats when the history of the project started

also, what episode did we first see the borg, early to mid TNG?

The phaser coverage is similar to that of a Galaxy-class ship, I don't acknowledge the phasers are of a different type at all (John Eaves noted they were the same), and I see no reason to believe that the Galaxy-class ships fighting the war (and other kinds too) didn't receive as many Q-torps as were available--they were obviously expected to see a lot of action, considering they had wings built around them in the fleet actions on DS9.
and just where did he say that? Star Trek the Magazine and other sources say otherwise, and I think he was just responsable for the appearence wasn't he? either maybe he wasn't aware of other plans for the weapons, or it was a error on his part, he is human after all, when so
many other cannon sources disagree, it's hard to say they are the same, and "same type" could have just meant they where phasers.

well, since there are supposedly what, two Sovies running around... yeah I'm sure some Galaxy classes did recieve some quanums, but I tought we where comparing the whole classes of them and not specific ships, like the Defiant has a cloaking device but no other Defiant class vessel does.. and even if you give the Galxy
Quantums, you don't have the 4/sec turret or the extra launchers...

I mean, if we are going to talk about what we can give them lets just give them Transphasic Torpedos and them them destroy eachother at the same time.... :/

I believe you are thinking of the Prometheus prototype. I don't recall this being mentioned in any of the movies with the Enterprise-E. A check of Memory Alpha supports this.

We don't know what other kinds of ships have this tech, if any, or if it can be retrofitted. Since it was mentioned as a feature of a new prototype, it is likely a very new thing, and not necessarily found on ships that were designed years and years before that prototype.
no I mean the Sovy, which was constructed after the Prommy as far as I'm aware, it's mentioned in one of the Technical manuals, or something like that that she has them, allthough I dobt they are as effect as the Prommies due to the size of the shield that has to be generated and all, I wish I remember what reference it was, but it had cannon writers like
the TNG Tech manual does...

so yeah she has them or was supposed to, they don't hold up well though....

I'm not suggesting there aren't plenty of other duties that need attention during the Dominion War, or that those duties are in any way less important. I do object to the view of any Sovereign-class ship as a fanboyish uberwarship vastly outperforming the Galaxy class or any other for defensive duties; it at least needs to be considered that ships of the class were not shown fighting the war, Enterprise-E was shown on rather less dangerous duties in our glimpse of her during the war, and it is possible to conclude from the rare sightings that the Sovereign class was a very limited run or had problems or something.
unerwarshp? lol well I do think allot of people forgot that she is an explorer just like those before her, but she was again designed with a strong militaristic view as well, and I would imagine that
with all the newer tech, and everything, she would wouldn't be cheap on resources, newer flag-ship worthy vessels rarely ever are...

also of note, her naccelles (ST Magazine) are designed to stop the damage of the fabric of space as was mentioned in TNG, so unless the Galaxys got upggraded, they may seem to go so slow because they aren't allowd to go any faster?
then if you have to you have to....

but looking at the warp values in ST The Magazine and other sources, she is faster, but I get what your saying at times it seems as if she's to fast....

I think it isn't ust the speed of the SOv here, I think theres other factors...

I don't think there was anything wrong with the design though, if there wasa maor flaw, we'd know by now, there would be a problem with the E, and it doesn't need any with
the situations it finds it self in... lol

if there was and they fixed it, then it's fixable so still... unless it cost to many resources...

It was during the war, and not only that, but Picard complains about the Enterprise being asked to put out "one more brush fire," as if they'd been doing these sorts of missions for a while (kept largely out of the conflict).
hmmm well I thought that phrase was in first contact, or was that chasing asteroids? lol

if from FC, its easily explained, as for Innsurrection, not sure, off course, thats hard evidence because theres no time reference, another as in ust that all month or two or the whole course of the war?

honestly, looking at the Sovy andit's capabilities and them being there during the war, if thats the case, I'd say plot device... cause they could have and should have sent a Galaxy not expecting fowl play but then... we wouldn't have had a movie would we?

I don't know if it is an Explorer. Heavy Cruiser might make more sense, especially if your claims about its lacking accommodations and "diplomatic potential" and focus on combat systems were true. I don't think they are true, but would nevertheless be willing to accept Heavy Cruiser as a compromise toward the idea that the Sovereign class is designed for a slightly less wide range of mission profiles than the Galaxy class.

(Fans grabbed on to the fact that Enterprise-E apparently doesn't carry families as meaning that it was built for war, but I suspect the Galaxy ships carry families and civilian consultants and such because they are designed for independent missions of very long duration (15-20 years, perhaps?). A Sovereign-class ship may be intended for missions of exploration and scientific inquiry that are more limited in scope.)

but see again, I never said it lacked diplomatic capability I said it lacked diplomatic capability on par with a Galaxy class... I mean come on she was like a flippin space hotel...

thats a good point though, I'm sure because of the Galaxies larger size, theres no doubt you could o further before requiring new fuel and the like, but you know, how much do you need when there
doesn't seem to be a lack of places you can get them, look at Voyager for example, allthough thats a special case, and I'm sure Starfleet wouldn't want a ship to get its materials from just anywhere, for security reasons, but point being

how much do you really need? it seems to me that in the course of that much time, both would need to re-fuel, and surely they could find a place in that much time, how far out are we talking.... I don't really see how the Sovy is limited in range that much...

but if we are talking assignment lentgh, thats another thing but, what about the senior officers assigned to a Sovy, chances are they will be there
for a long time, and they don't bring their families... it seems to me that you ust wouldn't assign anyone to a Sovy class, if theres only two in the fleet, and its a prestigous assiggnment much like the Galaxy was said to be in her hay day, you
would have allot of officers trying to grab a position, not that it's really there choice though...

but if one did put in the effort to get an assignment like that, I'm sure they'd do what they could to keep it, what ever influence they have from gettin transferred, so I doubt its something you really go into expecting to leave soon...

that and the level a famialrarity you probably have to have with the crew to work together efectivley especially on the larger ships, unless your an ensin I doubt it's a short assignment.

50 meter is just an off the cuff remark, i don't know exact dimensions. The sovereign doesn't have them because we can see how tiny they are in MSDS. They look like slow firing Voyager ones.
tech advancement? if not ith a Turret firing 4 at a time max,.... I doubt the others would have to be that fast, not being the main heavy weapon.... if all the alaxy has are those 3 photon launchers then,
yeah I can see them goin faster than a ship that uses them as secondary lunchers...

In Star Trek, bigger is always better.
not so... not so at all

Omega Particle > Warp Core

Transphasic Torpedo > whole savo of Quantum torps

Promethius class > Nebula

forward firing power of the Defiant > that of many larger ships (to a degree)

list goes on....
"I am Homer of Borg. Prepare to be ...ooooh donuts!"
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