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Old January 4 2009, 05:44 PM   #65
Ovation
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Location: La Belle Province or The Green Mountain State (depends on the day of the week)
Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
gastrof wrote: View Post
Some have expressed concerns about the new timeline making impossible some of the experiences Kirk was said to have had when younger (and episodes that grew out of them), but I wonder how many have really been wrecked.

Some seem to be taking Kirk on Pike's Enterprise as a cadet with no real status at all with Starfleet, but something seems to be pointing in a different direction. What's that?

The fact he can apparently relieve Spock of command and take over the ship.

Would a cadet be able to do that with Uhura, Sulu, and the others present?

I suspect that Kirk is NOT a cadet at that point in the movie, and that at least some of what we know did already happen to him. (For example, him losing his captain on an earlier ship to the vampire cloud.)

Does anyone else get what I'm saying? Care to comment?
Broken record time again... I hate the fact that I keep having to repeat this point. But with so few people today having actually served, I guess few people understand this sort of thing.

Military careers aren't like civilian ones. You don't "go to college, graduate, and go get a job." Education is a continuing process, and each time you are being prepared to hold a higher level of responsibility, you're required to return for further training and education before you're permitted to do so.

In the US Army, today:

A cadet must graduate from the Academy (or, today, alternatively from ROTC) before becoming a junior officer.

A junior officer must graduate from Officer Basic (not the same thing as basic training, which is also required but while still a cadet) before being permitted to actually serve.

A serving junior officer must graduate from Officer Advanced before being promoted to a lower-level command (ie, a company commander role) and being promoted to a mid-level rank (ie, Captain).

A serving mid-level officer must attend another training program before being eligible to serve in a mid-level command (ie, Batallion command) and to be promoted to a senior-level rank (ie, Lieutenant Colonel... the equivalent in naval terms of Commander, by the way).

A serving senior-level officer must attend another training program before being eligible to be promoted to a the ranks of the Generals, and to hold the senior level roles reserved for those personnel.

The point? WHY, OH WHY does everyone keep assuming that Kirk would have taken the Kobayashi Maru test as a "cadet?" Saavik wasn't a "cadet" in ST-II... she was Lieutenant. She was in command of a crew of cadets, but she, herself, was a commissioned officer. Naval Lieutenants are the same as Army Captains... meaning she had at least four and as many as ten years of active duty service under her belt already.

Same as would be the case with Kirk at the same point in his career.

The only way that this works is if they show Kirk arriving at SFA, then cut forward a number of years (eight, minimum!) to when he's back at the academy for his "Officer Advanced" course.

If they don't do it that way (and I'm giving it a 50/50 chance), then they'll be "off," badly. If he really is a "cadet" who takes command... they'll be slapping the audience in the face by doing so... especially those of us who've served.
I suspect it will be less than eight (time compression is often employed in historical feature films that deal with real subjects--sci fi has less of an investment in "realism") but I sincerely and seriously doubt it will be "cadet to captain". IF it is (and I consider it unlikely), then my estimation of the filmmakers will be severely diminished. I'm not especially worried, though.
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