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slappy June 17 2009 02:45 AM

Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
I've seen repeated in several places that some people don't accept the alternate timeline aspect because, as has been said, it's been shown time and time again that time travel doesn't create alternate times. First Contact, Voyage Home, City On The Edge Of Forever, etc. To which I say.....how do you know?

People just assume that FC didn't create an alternate timeline because Picard & crew went back and confronted the Borg. But why? If we're accepting the Trek 09 theory, there are infinite timelines. There is no original. There's no reason to think that Picard & crew just went back to exactly where they were. The one before the Borg went back and the one after the Borg were stopped, just happen to be so similar to one another that no discernable damage was done.

There's another timeline where they weren't stopped. The Ent crew sees it on their way to back in time.

"6 billion lifeforms. All Borg."

To me, the "Prime" Trek universe is the one with the least damage was done. After Kirk & crew returned from the 1940's with McCoy. After they returned from 1986. After First Contact.

I'm partial to the timeline where Star Trek is a franchise and I'm just a guy talking about it.

slappy June 17 2009 04:10 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
-oop-

Jeri June 17 2009 04:17 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.

It actually amounts to a correction about time travel, according to recent thinking on the subject. He discusses it in the "Orci Q&A" from trekmovie.com, listed in the Trek News Items.

Mr. Laser Beam June 17 2009 04:31 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Jeri wrote: (Post 3092363)
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.

I don't consider this a big deal. I just think of it this way:

It's the black hole. That alone makes this different from any previously seen method of Trek time travel.

Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected. :)

Sabataage June 17 2009 05:18 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3092408)
Quote:

Jeri wrote: (Post 3092363)
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.


Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected. :)

I like that one the best. It would be nice if Spock had said as much. That while the technology and ship designs were different, enough remained the same time for him to adapt and recognize it, like Scotty and Kirk.

Lindley June 17 2009 05:41 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Who was it who said that it is the responsibility of the time-traveler to seek out the best of all possible realities, and brink about its realization?

theenglish June 17 2009 12:28 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Alternative timelines have been addressed in several episodes. Yesterday's Enterprise and Parallels come to mind, as do the final episodes of TNG and Voyager.

The difference is that in these previous episodes it has been considered a "loss" if the events of the past are not corrected.

Sanae June 17 2009 12:39 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
*get ready to be bricked alive*

Thing is, I find it a lot easier to believe that going back in time, regardless the reason, does create a different, alternative timeline. Which is why I did have a bit of trouble accepting when Scotty and McCoy gave the transparent aluminium formula to that engineer in The Voyage Home. It would have made more sense to try and find the company which actually created the formula and maybe provide them with the knowledge a bit before it actually happened.

The way I've always seen time-travel is a like in Back to the Future, i.e. if you change, even accidentally, something about your past or that of your ancestors, it's certain that the reality in which you existed will be different, even compromising your own existence. For instance, if I had gone back in time and had prevented my parents from meeting each other, I wouldn't be here today, would I?

That said, I do wonder what else Nero's attack on the Kelvin changed in terms of the Federation, its policies, etc, etc...after all, if they knew it was a Romulan ship, I find it hard to accept that the Federation wouldn't ask Romulus for an explanation, at the very least.

Thelin June 17 2009 01:37 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3092408)
Quote:

Jeri wrote: (Post 3092363)
Orci said that the alternate reality used in this movie is a departure from all the other time-travel rationales in previous Trek.

I don't consider this a big deal. I just think of it this way:

It's the black hole. That alone makes this different from any previously seen method of Trek time travel.

Assuming that this is not just an alternate timeline, but an alternate *universe*, that the Narada and the Jellyfish both crossed into. (It would certainly explain a few things, such as the look of the Kelvin, the differing stardate system, etc.)

Thus, the prime timeline we all know and love is doubly protected. :)

That's how I view it, too. The black hole aspect is definitely the variable that makes it all seem plausible to me.

As to alternate timelines as a result of time travel... My username comes from a character who soley exists in a different timeline because the past was messed with. In this timeline, Spock died as a boy and as a result never became Kirk's First Officer. So, to those who say that time travel doesn't create alternate timelines or whatever in Star Trek, I disagree. :)

I, personally, think that you can't change the past. So, if you were to time travel and kill a person, it won't matter because it was going to happen that way anyway. If I was doing the writing, that's how I'd make it. But, fortunately, or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, ST doesn't work that way.

Ovation June 17 2009 01:58 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Sanae wrote: (Post 3093197)
Thing is, I find it a lot easier to believe that going back in time, regardless the reason, does create a different, alternative timeline. Which is why I did have a bit of trouble accepting when Scotty and McCoy gave the transparent aluminium formula to that engineer in The Voyage Home. It would have made more sense to try and find the company which actually created the formula and maybe provide them with the knowledge a bit before it actually happened.

In the novelization, Scotty realizes he's met one of his "engineering heroes"--the man who invented transparent aluminum. Therefore, his "giving the formula" is rather like Spock Prime's giving the transwarp formula to Scotty in the new movie. Just a tangential bit FYI.

BorgPhil June 17 2009 08:06 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
I can't believe the number of people who either a) just haven't got it or b) are in complete denial.

a) example: 'hopefully in the next movie they will correct the timeline!' NO NO NO

b) example: 'I don't care if Orci, Kurtzman, the film, CBS, PAramount, sane people tell me that it's an alternate universe, it just isn't.' IT ISN'T SOMEONE'S OPINION, IT'S A FACT FFS. YOU CANNOT DISPUTE FACT.

...and relax.

Sanae June 17 2009 08:44 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Ovation wrote: (Post 3093302)
In the novelization, Scotty realizes he's met one of his "engineering heroes"--the man who invented transparent aluminum. Therefore, his "giving the formula" is rather like Spock Prime's giving the transwarp formula to Scotty in the new movie. Just a tangential bit FYI.

Mister, you've just solved one of the biggest mysteries I had regarding Star Trek. Okay, I'm exaggerating a little but, seriously, thanks, that somehow makes it all right for me.

Cakes488 June 17 2009 09:13 PM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

Lindley wrote: (Post 3092593)
Who was it who said that it is the responsibility of the time-traveler to seek out the best of all possible realities, and brink about its realization?

I think that was Einstein who said that.

Jayson June 18 2009 04:30 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
The important thing for me has always been the writers intent. In "First Contact" we are supose to asume the timeline was fixed and the Enterprise crew went back to to trekverse they have always been in. I don't think this how time travel works in reality,asuming we ever figure out how to do it, but I don't have problem with going with this idea,simply because people want to feel like they have been watching the same characters from beginning to end.

The writers need time travel to work differently for the movie,so they could create a new trekverse without erasing the orginal one so they went with the the theory that a divergent timeline would be created. This is proably how time travel would work in reality but realism wasn't the intent. The intent was the achieve the above mentioned goal. I don't have a problem with that.

Jason

suarezguy June 18 2009 05:01 AM

Re: Alternate Timeline: Things I Don't Think People Understand
 
Quote:

slappy wrote: (Post 3092152)
I've seen repeated in several places that some people don't accept the alternate timeline aspect because, as has been said, it's been shown time and time again that time travel doesn't create alternate times. First Contact, Voyage Home, City On The Edge Of Forever, etc. To which I say.....how do you know?

People just assume that FC didn't create an alternate timeline because Picard & crew went back and confronted the Borg. But why? If we're accepting the Trek 09 theory, there are infinite timelines. There is no original. There's no reason to think that Picard & crew just went back to exactly where they were.

Cochrane and Sloan probably couldn't have helped getting somewhat inspired by what they saw of the Enterprise-E and yet when it returns to its future the technological level is the same.
I maintain that the drama in The Voyage Home or "Endgame", and the universe in general, comes from the idea that there's only one timeline and set of characters that can be changed, otherwise there's no point in trying to change, or prevent changes to, the past.


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