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Mr. Laser Beam May 29 2009 09:02 PM

A question about Betazoids
 
Well, several questions, anyway. :p

I got to thinking of this when "The Drumhead" came into my mind. One of Admiral Satie's aides was a full Betazoid (Sabin Jenestra). Why didn't he read Simon Tarses' mind and be done with it? They were trying to figure out what Tarses was hiding, what he knew, etc. Is there some reason why Sabin didn't simply scan Tarses? He could already tell Tarses was hiding something. Why not follow through on it? Is there a law that says he can't?

I don't remember if the show ever said there was any kind of law or cultural taboo against a forcible mind scan. Do people who are being scanned know that they are?

I remember that Tarses had the right not to answer questions, but what about having his mind scanned? I don't remember if the episode ever dealt with that. I guess there would have to be some protection, otherwise it would never be possible to have any kind of privacy on Betazed or even when other Betazoids are around.

(OTOH, as ST VI showed, Spock was permitted to forcibly mind meld with Valeris to find out what *she* knew...so if a Vulcan can do it, why couldn't a Betazoid? Especially since Betazoids don't need to touch you to read your mind.)

Finn May 29 2009 09:07 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
^In Spock's case, the crime was real. There was a murder. They knew the quilty party was on the Enterprise. Kirk and Bones' lives were at stake, and the fate of this part of the Galaxy was at stake too. So Spock had to do it.

The hearing in The Drumhead was more of a farce, no evidence of an actual crime the whole time.

Mr. Laser Beam May 29 2009 09:12 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Finn wrote: (Post 3021922)
The hearing in The Drumhead was more of a farce, no evidence of an actual crime the whole time.

Well, yeah, but Sabin was working directly for Admiral Satie. I would have expected her to order him to do a full scan on Tarses, even if it might not have been legal.

dave_R_treker May 29 2009 09:56 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
It may be difficult for a Batazoid to read the minds of Vulcans/Romulans, even if they are 1/2 or 1/4.

Mr. Laser Beam May 29 2009 10:07 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

dave_R_treker wrote: (Post 3022074)
It may be difficult for a Batazoid to read the minds of Vulcans/Romulans, even if they are 1/2 or 1/4.

There are many races that Betazoids can't read, but neither Vulcans nor Romulans have been one of them that we're aware of.

Alrik May 29 2009 10:42 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3022112)
Quote:

dave_R_treker wrote: (Post 3022074)
It may be difficult for a Batazoid to read the minds of Vulcans/Romulans, even if they are 1/2 or 1/4.

There are many races that Betazoids can't read, but neither Vulcans nor Romulans have been one of them that we're aware of.


I'm not so sure about that. Troi had no clue that the Vulcan Ambassador was really a Romulan spy.

Mr. Laser Beam May 29 2009 10:45 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Alrik wrote: (Post 3022203)
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3022112)
Quote:

dave_R_treker wrote: (Post 3022074)
It may be difficult for a Batazoid to read the minds of Vulcans/Romulans, even if they are 1/2 or 1/4.

There are many races that Betazoids can't read, but neither Vulcans nor Romulans have been one of them that we're aware of.


I'm not so sure about that. Troi had no clue that the Vulcan Ambassador was really a Romulan spy.

That Romulan was probably specially trained in order to fool anyone trying to scan her. What if there'd been another Vulcan on board? She couldn't take that chance.

Anwar May 29 2009 11:29 PM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
We know that there is training that be taken to resist mind probes. Dukat was able to resist a Vulcan forcibly mind-melding him in "The Maquis" because of special training he got.

Captrek May 30 2009 12:14 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3021911)
(OTOH, as ST VI showed, Spock was permitted to forcibly mind meld with Valeris to find out what *she* knew...so if a Vulcan can do it, why couldn't a Betazoid? Especially since Betazoids don't need to touch you to read your mind.)

As far as I know this isnít officially established as canon, but I got the distinct impression that a forcible mind meld is considered a reprehensible, almost unthinkable, thing for a Vulcan to do. However, as Finn pointed out, the stakes in this case were so high, and time so short, that Spock had no logical alternative.

Then again, trying to make logical sense out of anything in TUC is an exercise in futility. Ugh, what a frustrating film. :brickwall:

roguephoenix May 30 2009 02:34 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
from what i understood he wasn't able to read his mind fully. he tried, but with the guy being half romulan he had certain mental abilities too that he was able to hide his specific thoughts? he did feel though that he had something to hide.

Mr. Laser Beam May 30 2009 02:50 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

roguephoenix wrote: (Post 3022855)
from what i understood he wasn't able to read his mind fully. he tried, but with the guy being half romulan he had certain mental abilities too that he was able to hide his specific thoughts? h

Romulans don't have the telepathic abilities that Vulcans do. They can't mind meld, for example. (And Tarses was only 1/4 Romulan, in any case.)

Vanyel May 30 2009 03:40 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3022902)
Quote:

roguephoenix wrote: (Post 3022855)
from what i understood he wasn't able to read his mind fully. he tried, but with the guy being half romulan he had certain mental abilities too that he was able to hide his specific thoughts? h

Romulans don't have the telepathic abilities that Vulcans do. They can't mind meld, for example. (And Tarses was only 1/4 Romulan, in any case.)

Then perhaps that 1/4 Romulan brain structure and 3/4 human (maybe, because we don't know that the rest of his heritage is pure human) prevented a telepathic probe. Nothing active on Tarses' part, just a natural thing.

Also, was it ever said that the Admiral's assistant was a full Betazoid and not 3/4, or 1/2, 1/4 or any other fraction?

roguephoenix May 30 2009 03:42 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 3022902)
Quote:

roguephoenix wrote: (Post 3022855)
from what i understood he wasn't able to read his mind fully. he tried, but with the guy being half romulan he had certain mental abilities too that he was able to hide his specific thoughts? h

Romulans don't have the telepathic abilities that Vulcans do. They can't mind meld, for example. (And Tarses was only 1/4 Romulan, in any case.)

they must have some mental capacity though they have lost it. i think it's why they were also convinced that he was part vulcan and not romulan.

the better question is why didn't that show up in medical scans. could it be all this time he's avoided or faked medical scans?

Captrek May 30 2009 06:07 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
Quote:

roguephoenix wrote: (Post 3023034)
the better question is why didn't that show up in medical scans. could it be all this time he's avoided or faked medical scans?

Vulcans and Romulans are physiologically very similar. 3Human-1Vulcan hybrids and 3Human-1Romulan hybrids presumably are four times more similar than Vulcans and Romulans. The difference is probably subtle enough that you wonít find it unless youíre looking for it.

They probably donít look for it routinely, because there is no law against people of 25% Romulan blood serving in Starfleet. (Saavik was 50% Romulan and served openly in Starfleet.) Tarses lied on his application in an attempt to avoid the prejudice and suspicion with which Romulans are typically regarded, not because the truth would have kept him out of Starfleet, but because the truth would have made his life in Starfleet a lot more difficult.

Rageforthemachine May 30 2009 06:29 AM

Re: A question about Betazoids
 
I am not sure if it has ever been stated, but I have to believe that Federation ethics and law would frown heavily on using mind reading in a legal proceeding. Integrity of personhood and due process seems very important in their system. I imaging in general they would see reading someone's mind without their permission as a gross violation.


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