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digger May 15 2009 03:54 PM

A scene that I don't understand
 
I hope I post this correctly, as a post regarding a seperate topic I made 2 days ago somehow disappeared.

Anyway-- in the scenes where Kirk is speaking with Spock Prime, I believe toward the end, right before the beam out, Kirk says to Spock Prime something to the effect of, "You coming back in time. You cheated." Spock Prime responds with something like, "Something I learned from a old friend."

This whole exchange doesn't make much sense to me. I think I understand what the writers are trying to imply with this scene: that Spock Prime's solution to the Nero problem was no different than Kirk's solution to the Kobayashi Maru.

However, Spock Prime didn't come back in time intentionally. And even not taking that into account, now that Spock Prime is in the past, he is not trying to change anything (save for putting the Kirk/Spock friendship back on track).

So going back in time isn't his solution to anything. It's just what happened as a result of his actions.

Am I missing something else here? Can someone please clear it up for me if I am?

thanks,
mike.

KirkusOveractus May 15 2009 03:59 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
He isn't just trying to get the Kirk/Spock friendship back on track, he's trying to get Kirk in command of the Enterprise to defeat Nero.

There have been some times in TOS where Spock mentions to not interfere with the past timeframe they're in, lest they change the course of history.

He could just as well have watched Vulcan explode and go to the Starfleet outpost, not tell Scotty who he is and let Kirk come in from the pod, not doing anything but live the rest of his days there.

But, he decided to tell Kirk how to get command of the ship, and gave Scotty calculations on how to get to the Enterprise from Delta Vega instead.

Ransak May 15 2009 04:03 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

digger wrote: (Post 2960796)
I hope I post this correctly, as a post regarding a seperate topic I made 2 days ago somehow disappeared.

Anyway-- in the scenes where Kirk is speaking with Spock Prime, I believe toward the end, right before the beam out, Kirk says to Spock Prime something to the effect of, "You coming back in time. You cheated." Spock Prime responds with something like, "Something I learned from a old friend."

This whole exchange doesn't make much sense to me. I think I understand what the writers are trying to imply with this scene: that Spock Prime's solution to the Nero problem was no different than Kirk's solution to the Kobayashi Maru.

However, Spock Prime didn't come back in time intentionally. And even not taking that into account, now that Spock Prime is in the past, he is not trying to change anything (save for putting the Kirk/Spock friendship back on track).

So going back in time isn't his solution to anything. It's just what happened as a result of his actions.

Am I missing something else here? Can someone please clear it up for me if I am?

thanks,
mike.

I took it as a glib reference to Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home. And on the note that Spock did not come back intentionally I agree with you, that whole scene seemed somewhat contrived. Yet another plot hole I guess.

Admiral Buzzkill May 15 2009 04:48 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Spock Prime gives Scotty future technology in order to get Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise.

That's definitely cheating, no matter what his motives are and no matter his assertion that Scotty will discover it himself at some point in the future.

Pretty cut and dried in that respect.

ST-One May 15 2009 04:51 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
It's the writers making fun of themselves.

digger May 15 2009 05:03 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

Dennis wrote: (Post 2961014)
Spock Prime gives Scotty future technology in order to get Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise.

That's definitely cheating, no matter what his motives are and no matter his assertion that Scotty will discover it himself at some point in the future.

Pretty cut and dried in that respect.

I can buy that. Keeping in mind what you just said allows me to enjoy the scene more. Thanks for the information.

Franklin May 15 2009 05:16 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
This timeline had already be altered 25 years before Spock Prime emerged. In effect, when he emerges, the damage has been done and Spock Prime is now a part of this new timeline. There is nothing he can set straight. He might as well be a part of it.

To that end, nudging Kirk in the direction of taking over the Enterprise is probably the point they are addressing before Kirk beams out. Kirk certainly wouldn't have done that without Spock Prime's urging and help. Who knows where he would've ended up had he not been told to take that chance by Spock Prime?

As far as Spock Prime's response to changing history being cheating is that he learned it from an old friend goes, the only problem I had is I don't recall a time Kirk ever set out to change history. In TVH nothing was changed. Whales were brought to the 23rd century, but obviously that was supposed to happen. In "City" or "Tommorow is Yesterday", it was about returning things to as they were supposed to be.

I think the thing the writers may have done is play on the popular misperception that Kirk made many trips through time and altered history as needed. Which is, of course, patently wrong in reality.

DougWare May 15 2009 05:31 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
The line that Spock speaks during the movie that made absolutely no sense to me was something like "Thrusters on full" during Kirk's promotion scene. I kept expecting to cut to the Enterprise and have Kirk use that exact line (kinda as a tie in to between the two timelines). However, since it wasn't quoted exactly I have no clue why Spock said it.

Any ideas?

AlanC9 May 15 2009 05:34 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
There were supposed to be whales in the 24th century? I don't see it; it's convenient for humans if there are, but nobody mucked with the timeline to stop them from being there.

Doesn't change the main point, though. Kirk is trying to change his present in TVH, not his past.

As for cheating, I read Spock Prime as not talking about timelines per se. What he learned from Kirk Prime is that when the rules are against you, cheating is the logical response.

Opus May 15 2009 05:45 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
I thought the "cheating" line was in reference to the Kirk vs. Spock exchange in front of the academy board after Kirk beat Spock's Kobayashi Maru test.

Admiral Buzzkill May 15 2009 05:46 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

digger wrote: (Post 2961086)
Quote:

Dennis wrote: (Post 2961014)
Spock Prime gives Scotty future technology in order to get Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise.

That's definitely cheating, no matter what his motives are and no matter his assertion that Scotty will discover it himself at some point in the future.

Pretty cut and dried in that respect.

I can buy that. Keeping in mind what you just said allows me to enjoy the scene more. Thanks for the information.

Spock Prime, of course, is an old hand at time-travel, which young Kirk and his friends don't yet know anything about. Spock or his companions have done a bit of it and have done a bit of cheating at it from time to time as well. He knows that from his POV it's worked out pretty well most of the time. Transparent aluminum...

Holodoc May 15 2009 09:30 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

digger wrote: (Post 2961086)
Quote:

Dennis wrote: (Post 2961014)
Spock Prime gives Scotty future technology in order to get Kirk and Scotty to the Enterprise.

That's definitely cheating, no matter what his motives are and no matter his assertion that Scotty will discover it himself at some point in the future.

Pretty cut and dried in that respect.

I can buy that. Keeping in mind what you just said allows me to enjoy the scene more. Thanks for the information.

Except that Spock gives Scotty the information after this scene; unless Kirk can see into the future, he can hardly accuse Spock of cheating that he has not yet undertaken.

Balrog May 15 2009 09:31 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

OphaClyde wrote: (Post 2961281)
I thought the "cheating" line was in reference to the Kirk vs. Spock exchange in front of the academy board after Kirk beat Spock's Kobayashi Maru test.

This is what I thought it was too.

Holodoc May 16 2009 07:29 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
That's what it is from the perspective of the audience; it's when you think about it from the perspective of the characters that it starts to fall apart.

Falconfire May 16 2009 07:58 PM

Re: A scene that I don't understand
 
Quote:

DougWare wrote: (Post 2961216)
The line that Spock speaks during the movie that made absolutely no sense to me was something like "Thrusters on full" during Kirk's promotion scene. I kept expecting to cut to the Enterprise and have Kirk use that exact line (kinda as a tie in to between the two timelines). However, since it wasn't quoted exactly I have no clue why Spock said it.

Any ideas?

Exactly as you said. More than once in the movies before moving out, Kirk gives that command to Sulu. When Spock says it upon watching Kirk finally take his rightful command, we then cut to Sulus typical thruster/impulse lines and a one by one to each of the crews customary moving out lines per the movies.

Basically Spock was saying to himself what he knew would come next given how often he remembers it happening on the Enterprise.

Its kinda of a old man remembering his past scene, and was really meant for the fans than it was the general audience.


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