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-   -   Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice... (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=90634)

gastrof May 2 2009 09:13 AM

Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice...
 
One of the complaints I had about the restored version (the combined black&white/color version and then the full color version) was that they combined the original voice of the Keeper with the voice they dubbed in for him in "The Menagerie".

The switching from one voice to another was...strange at best. (If they'd used one for telepathy and the other for his audible voice it might have made SOME kind of sense, but they used both for his audible voice.)

Anyway, it just dawned on me as the episode was ending that during the whole thing, all I'd heard was the voice dubbed in for "The Menagerie".

Didn't catch ONE example of the original voice.

WERE there any such examples? Did I just miss it?

Now, if they'd switched back to the original voice for the whole thing, THAT I could have understood. They'd have had recordings of the lines spoken in that voice for the entire episode...but they shouldn't have had recordings of the dubbed voice for any scenes that didn't get used during "The Menagerie".

And yet, again, NO case (apparently) of the original voice being used.

HOW did they do that? Did TOSR's aired version simply not include any scenes that weren't in "The Menagerie"?

Any of you who have the "Remastered" DVDs... What do YOU hear when you watch the episode? You'd have heard the entire thing, uncut, so did they use only the dubbed voice (the one used in "The Menagerie") in the version on the Remastered DVDs?

I can see why'd they'd have made that choice, since it fits in with the later "Menagerie" flashbacks, but HOW did they get recordings of the Keeper's voice from lines that were never recorded for the flashbacks?

Get what I mean?

Think they re-dubbed any lines that hadn't been redubbed back in the 60s, maybe using a sound-alike voice artist, or even a computerized voice imitation?

gastrof May 2 2009 07:05 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Aw, come on guys. I really want some input here. It really looks like in remastering they somehow recreated the "Menagerie" version of the Keeper's voice, and if so I'm very impressed. I'm just not sure if anything we saw on the air was NOT included in "The Menagerie".

Those of you with the remastered discs that've already been released, does the Keeper have the Menagerie voice thru the whole thing? (Including in scenes that had to be edited out for time in this week's aired version?)

J. Lester May 2 2009 08:08 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Quote:

gastrof wrote: (Post 2895187)
Aw, come on guys. I really want some input here. It really looks like in remastering they somehow recreated the "Menagerie" version of the Keeper's voice, and if so I'm very impressed. I'm just not sure if anything we saw on the air was NOT included in "The Menagerie".

Those of you with the remastered discs that've already been released, does the Keeper have the Menagerie voice thru the whole thing? (Including in scenes that had to be edited out for time in this week's aired version?)

The uncut remastered version does have the "Menagerie" voice throughout the entire episode.

davejames May 2 2009 08:09 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Haven't seen it yet, but considering all the amazing things they can do with audio now, I wouldn't be surprised if they could alter those bits to sound like the higher-pitched female voice.

Praetor May 2 2009 08:10 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
IIRC, it's also actually the same voice - they just sped it up to give it a higher pitch for 'The Menagerie' because the voice was provided by the actor playing Commodore Mendez and it was felt it would be recognizable and/or confusing.

number6 May 2 2009 08:20 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 2895385)
IIRC, it's also actually the same voice - they just sped it up to give it a higher pitch for 'The Menagerie' because the voice was provided by the actor playing Commodore Mendez and it was felt it would be recognizable and/or confusing.

That's right. They ptiched the voice to avoid confusion.

Praetor May 2 2009 08:46 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Malachi Throne does have a very distinctive voice, IMO.

cooleddie74 May 2 2009 09:10 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
I've always preferred the original "Cage" version of the Keeper's voice. Just my own personal tastes.

Praetor May 2 2009 09:22 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
It does better complete the notion of having female actors play the Talosians dubbed with male voices to feel more 'alien.'

davejames May 2 2009 09:27 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Plus it's just a lot less annoying.

gastrof May 2 2009 09:59 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
So....

The already-released remastered DVDs have the same voice for the Keeper thru the whole episode, the "not deep" one?

Ziz May 2 2009 10:38 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
I wish people would look at things from a production perspective and get their history straight.

The original half color/half black and white version (which is in the TOS R S3 set) has that same audio change for the keeper line at the end. That was one of the shots they cut out for Menagerie. When they found the remaining color footage for the subsequent restoration, that was apparently all they found. The audio element was most likely lost or damaged beyond repair. Remember, we're talking about physical film and audio tape media here, not digital data.

Praetor May 2 2009 10:47 PM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
My thought is that when they found the other color footage, they sped up the other original voice audio to match the sped-up voice they had from 'The Menagerie.'

GSchnitzer May 3 2009 01:57 AM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
If I have my facts correct, the Frankenstein version of "The Cage" was shown on television for the first time and released on VHS back in 1986. This was the version that took the nice, clean "Cage" footage that was used in "The Menagerie" and incorporated it with crappy black and white with lousy sound footage pulled from Roddenberry's 16 mm working print. Shortly after that, Bob Furmanek, in 1987, found the pieces that had been cut out from "The Cage" in making "The Menagerie." Unfortunately, all he found was negatives without any sound. So, it was possible to make a full color version of all of "The Cage"--but those few non-"Menagerie" scenes, although now in color, would still have the old crappy sound. But the Keeper's voice in those two "Cage"-only scenes (Malachi Throne) was digitally monkeyed with (amazing what we can do nowadays) to make it sound higher pitched--like Vic Perrin's overdubs in the rest of the Menagerie. But when you listen to the few "Cage-only" scenes, there's clearly poor quality sound with a great deal of hiss.

Both versions (the Frankenstein version with black-and-white footage with Malachi Throne's deep voice and the all color version using the "recently" found color footage with the same old black and white *sound* but tricked up to sound like Malachi Throne) are available on the original DVDs (two episodes per disc) and the "old" Third Season boxed set and the "new" Third Season Remastered boxed set.

And, of course, you can still hear Malachi Throne's voice as the Keeper in one quick scene in the "Scenes from Next Week" for "The Menagerie, Part 2."

Therin of Andor May 3 2009 11:27 AM

Re: Just saw "The Cage" on TOSR- Help me out here...the Keeper's voice
 
Quote:

GSchnitzer wrote: (Post 2896461)
If I have my facts correct, the Frankenstein version of "The Cage" was shown on television for the first time

No, the b/w & color compile was a direct-to-video release. Then the lost color negatives were found. Then the all-color restored version was aired on TV, as part of "From One Saga To the Next", to kick off Season 2 of TNG, and then was released on VHS.


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