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-   -   I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager. (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=87215)

urbandk March 30 2009 05:25 PM

I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Just thought I'd throw this out, red meat, you know.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Borg, like Q, in my opinion became less interesting and more banal the more they were on screen.

I rather liked the idea of an enemy whose existence was totally subsumed into a hive mind. The introduction of some mega-Borg queen seemed to belittle the whole concept.

Likewise, I also felt that Q became increasingly stupid, especially in Voyager.

I'm just writing this thread to complain about two of my Star Trek pet peeves.

USS Triumphant March 30 2009 05:26 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
I agree with both of these opinions. :techman:

CorporalClegg March 30 2009 05:30 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
I never liked either.

CaptJimboJones March 30 2009 06:08 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Probably 98 percent of the folks on this board will agree with you. ;)

I'm in the (probably small) group that thinks the best Borg episode after BOBW was the Enterprise one. It was a return to the old-school scary Borg, and a lot more fun than the TNG and VOY episodes that completely demystified them.

Thor Damar March 30 2009 06:12 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Quote:

urbandk wrote: (Post 2775003)
Just thought I'd throw this out, red meat, you know.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Borg, like Q, in my opinion became less interesting and more banal the more they were on screen.

I rather liked the idea of an enemy whose existence was totally subsumed into a hive mind. The introduction of some mega-Borg queen seemed to belittle the whole concept.

Likewise, I also felt that Q became increasingly stupid, especially in Voyager.

I'm just writing this thread to complain about two of my Star Trek pet peeves.


I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. ;) (In all seriousness I agree completely with your statement)

Damask March 30 2009 06:13 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
I think though the Borg were never really ever going to work if they appeared all the time. Even TNG's Borg stories got stale and they only had about five of them.

I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.

Dane_Whitman March 30 2009 06:14 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Quote:

CaptJimboJones wrote: (Post 2775193)
I'm in the (probably small) group that thinks the best Borg episode after BOBW was the Enterprise one. It was a return to the old-school scary Borg, and a lot more fun than the TNG and VOY episodes that completely demystified them.

I love Scorpion, but I agree with you. Regeneration was 100% scary Borg like we hadn't seen since BoBW.

WillsBabe March 30 2009 06:17 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Often, the more you get to know something the more it can lose its appeal, or its threat. I think the Borg and Q both suffered from this. I actually like the Borg Queen in FC but less so in Voyager.

BillJ March 30 2009 09:21 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Quote:

Damask wrote: (Post 2775228)
I think though the Borg were never really ever going to work if they appeared all the time. Even TNG's Borg stories got stale and they only had about five of them.

I'd be interested to hear how people would make the Borg a reoccurring enemy but not Voyagerize them.

By doing stories that are deeper than "Resistance is Futile". For all of the flaws Star Trek: Voyager had, it produced the most thought provoking Borg story there is in Unity.

Praetor March 30 2009 11:11 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
There are ways to rationalize the Queen away as a literal queen for the most part. I think the greater factor that diminished the Borg was that they seemed like pushovers. Tiny little Voyager escaping them every week? Riiight.

Q did get a tad overused on VGR (his introduction to VGR being the greater oddity for me), but 'Death Wish' was very good and 'The Q and the Grey' had its moments.

cultcross March 30 2009 11:19 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 2776396)
There are ways to rationalize the Queen away as a literal queen for the most part. I think the greater factor that diminished the Borg was that they seemed like pushovers. Tiny little Voyager escaping them every week? Riiight.

Q did get a tad overused on VGR (his introduction to VGR being the greater oddity for me), but 'Death Wish' was very good and 'The Q and the Grey' had its moments.


Agreed on both.

There was nothing exactly wrong with the Queen idea, and she worked OK in First Contact - but then she started appearing in every Borg episode in later Voyager, and suddenly it wasn't the Borg themselves that were the threat, it was just the queen, and her drones were basically mindless footsoldiers for our heroes to hack and slash their way through. Never on Voyager after Scorpion were the Borg half as scary as they were in BOBW, the mindless force bent on a single goal. At one point, the very name 'Borg' carried a goosebumps effect in the Star Trek fan - they were the villain that could really hurt us. But by the end of Voyager, it was 'ho hum, Borg again is it?' - they had been beaten too many times by a single ship to be remotely scary anymore.

As for Q, he never really worked after TNG - his appearence on DS9 sucked as well, imho. Removed from Jean Luc Picard as a foil he was a fairly insipid and irritating character. And Voyager had a habit of playing him as Janeway's intellectual equal, which was annoying. On TNG, even when our characters 'won', he always seemed to have an amused smile on his face as if he was really the puppet master even then - but on DS9 and Voyager, he seemed to have lost his edge, the inferior of the Starfleet crew.

plynch March 30 2009 11:58 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
A. Full agreement re. Borg.

B. I could never stand Q. He's smarmy; plus an omnipotent character makes any decisions and actions by mere humans ultimately moot.

C. Back to Borg - in real life, Roddenberry talked about the possibility of our evolving into a social organism with a collective, greater mind (the internet, anyone?) in Yvonne Fern's Gene Roddenberry: The Last Conversation (U. of Cal. Press, 1994). He is actually ok with the possibility, but acknowledges they had to make such a concept scary for commercial t.v.

WillsBabe March 31 2009 08:00 AM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Quote:

cultcross wrote: (Post 2776430)
There was nothing exactly wrong with the Queen idea, and she worked OK in First Contact - but then she started appearing in every Borg episode in later Voyager, and suddenly it wasn't the Borg themselves that were the threat, it was just the queen, and her drones were basically mindless footsoldiers for our heroes to hack and slash their way through.

This is a good point. I liked the Borg best when they were a faceless, homogenous, unreasonable force.

Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 2776396)
There are ways to rationalize the Queen away as a literal queen for the most part. I think the greater factor that diminished the Borg was that they seemed like pushovers. Tiny little Voyager escaping them every week? Riiight.

Another point I agree with. I see the Borg Queen as less of a literal queen and more a focul point of Borg consciousness; an interface. I'm not easy with the idea of a figurehead for the Borg. Although, after having said that, thinking about hives, hive creatures here on earth do have a queen. For some reason I can go with it in First Contact the movie and less so in Voyager.

Anwar March 31 2009 12:42 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
Problem is, the Borg are fundamentally boring as a recurring evil. They work better as the occasional threat seen every few seasons or one big story in a series and that's it. Maybe if they had the Borg be a plot device driving a conflict and had the characters deal with the situation the Borg had created without really encountering the Borg it would work, but as a real confrontation VOY HAD to weaken the Borg otherwise they'd be destroyed in 10 seconds and the show over.

Gotham Central March 31 2009 12:43 PM

Re: I liked the Borg more before the Borg Queen and Q before Voyager.
 
The problem with the Borg is that they were used improperly after the BoBW. What made the Borg frightening was the fact that it was a malevolent force of nature that could not be negotiated with. The proper way to use that type of villian is to not focus on them. Instead you focus on those impacted by them. Voyager could have told stories about borg created refugees. Conversely they could have had situations where the Voyager crew were simply unable to fight the borg and were forced to withdraw, perhaps leaving innocents behind to perish at the hands of the borg.


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