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-   -   Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers!) (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=78507)

gastrof January 2 2009 10:30 PM

Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers!)
 
Some have expressed concerns about the new timeline making impossible some of the experiences Kirk was said to have had when younger (and episodes that grew out of them), but I wonder how many have really been wrecked.

Some seem to be taking Kirk on Pike's Enterprise as a cadet with no real status at all with Starfleet, but something seems to be pointing in a different direction. What's that?

The fact he can apparently relieve Spock of command and take over the ship.

Would a cadet be able to do that with Uhura, Sulu, and the others present?

I suspect that Kirk is NOT a cadet at that point in the movie, and that at least some of what we know did already happen to him. (For example, him losing his captain on an earlier ship to the vampire cloud.)

Does anyone else get what I'm saying? Care to comment?

Flake January 2 2009 10:33 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Saavik was a Lieutenant and she was still at the academy and she was given command of the ship during TWOK at least twice. I would say Kirk has a rank and the crew must agree with his actions when he relieves Spock or else they wouldn't allow it.

Rķu rķu, chķu January 2 2009 10:36 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

gastrof wrote: (Post 2461735)
Some seem to be taking Kirk on Pike's Enterprise as a cadet with no real status at all with Starfleet, but something seems to be pointing in a different direction. What's that?

The fact he can apparently relieve Spock of command and take over the ship.

Would a cadet be able to do that with Uhura, Sulu, and the others present?

I suspect that Kirk is NOT a cadet at that point in the movie, and that at least some of what we know did already happen to him. (For example, him losing his captain on an earlier ship to the vampire cloud.)

Does anyone else get what I'm saying? Care to comment?

Well, the only spoilers we've heard so far indicate that Kirk is indeed a cadet when he is on the Enterprise. In fact, McCoy has to fake a serious illness in Kirk in order to *get* him on the ship in the first place. And of course we have all seen Kirk's all-black uniform (indicating cadet status). This is an issue because apparently, in the new timeline, Kirk does not even enter the Academy until some years after he did in the original timeline (due to Nero's interference, Kirk is raised by his abusive uncle, and thus grows up to be a similarly drunk loser who gets into fights a lot).

The only positive sign is that one bit towards the end of the preview where Kirk, this time in a real Starfleet uniform (and wearing full Captain's stripes, no less!) says "Buckle up!" You will also notice that all signs of the bar fight - i.e. the injuries to his face - have disappeared by this point. So we can only HOPE that a fair amount of time - years, ideally - have passed by this point. But until May rolls around, all we can comment on is what we see in the preview...

Therin of Andor January 2 2009 10:41 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461758)
You will also notice that all signs of the bar fight - i.e. the injuries to his face - have disappeared by this point.

You keep assuming that all the facial injuries are from the bar fight. At some point, Kirk ends up out in the snow and ice, searching for Nero, IIRC.

Rķu rķu, chķu January 2 2009 10:50 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 2461772)
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461758)
You will also notice that all signs of the bar fight - i.e. the injuries to his face - have disappeared by this point.

You keep assuming that all the facial injuries are from the bar fight. At some point, Kirk ends up out in the snow and ice, searching for Nero, IIRC.

The injuries we do see, do not look like frostbite.

Tom Servo January 2 2009 11:02 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461796)
Quote:

Therin of Andor wrote: (Post 2461772)
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461758)
You will also notice that all signs of the bar fight - i.e. the injuries to his face - have disappeared by this point.

You keep assuming that all the facial injuries are from the bar fight. At some point, Kirk ends up out in the snow and ice, searching for Nero, IIRC.

The injuries we do see, do not look like frostbite.

Perhaps they are from his fight with Spock.

IIRC I remember reading that the scene where he finally boards the Enterprise is nearly three years after the bar scene.

Perhaps Kirk is in some sort of fast track through the command program due to his incredible skills and test scores, but his cheating on the Kobyashi Maru test really pushes some of the wrong buttons, and he left off the list for the active posting on some ship.

Perhaps the "Buckle Up" scene is even later in the timeline, years perhaps, then the rest of the film, as Babaganoosh has mentioned.

Vigilance January 2 2009 11:14 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
I think what people are forgetting in their rush to yell "a cadet taking over a ship?!?!" is that James Kirk is a magnetic leader.

My guess is that the rest of the bridge crew noticed Spock wasn't totally in control, but were unsure how to react.

Then Kirk takes command of the situation, and thereby establishes himself as the leader of that group.

Alexander the Great was leading armies at a very young age, in command of people with much more experience who were much older. Leadership can be an innate quality, and we've already seen that Kirk has it.

As the older Spock tells him, it's time for him to take command of HIS ship.

Franklin January 2 2009 11:33 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Tom Servo wrote: (Post 2461836)
Perhaps the "Buckle Up" scene is even later in the timeline, years perhaps, then the rest of the film, as Babaganoosh has mentioned.

Yeah.
There's no way I can see Kirk in command gold with captain's stripes taking place while the main conflict is going on. It wouldn't make sense. It's apparently urgent that he get command of the Enterprise from Spock and stop Nero. But after he gets command he takes time to get in the proper uniform? Or even thinks to get one? Unlikely under the circumstances. And pretentious and presumptive, too.

I'm wondering if that line could be taken from near the very end of the movie, after the conflict is resolved and Kirk has been officially given command of the Enterprise for his heroics.
Since he's saying it to McCoy, perhaps it's in response to McCoy making some acidic comment about not wanting to go through anything like that (the encounter with Nero) again. After all McCoy has a line in the trailer that makes it sound like he's not THAT happy about space adventures. So, it could be that Kirk has "drafted" McCoy to be his chief medical officer and stay on board ship. "Buckle up," could simply mean, "Get used to it, you're with me."

Rķu rķu, chķu January 2 2009 11:49 PM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
^ Is Kirk saying it to McCoy? I thought it was Spock.

As for Kirk being a 'magnetic' leader: Of course he is. And apparently he's lucky enough to turn out that way too even in the alternate timeline.

But that doesn't mean he can just skip over all the intervening ranks. He has to spend *some* time as an Ensign, Lieutenant JG, Lieutenant, LCDR, etc. Those ranks are there to be used. You don't just skip ranks - that doesn't make sense. And it *definitely* doesn't make sense for a Cadet to go straight to Captain - not even if it's Kirk.

M'Sharak January 3 2009 12:09 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461951)
^ Is Kirk saying it to McCoy? I thought it was Spock.

I believe I've pointed it out to you before, but look at this:

Vigilance January 3 2009 12:20 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2461951)
^ Is Kirk saying it to McCoy? I thought it was Spock.

As for Kirk being a 'magnetic' leader: Of course he is. And apparently he's lucky enough to turn out that way too even in the alternate timeline.

But that doesn't mean he can just skip over all the intervening ranks. He has to spend *some* time as an Ensign, Lieutenant JG, Lieutenant, LCDR, etc. Those ranks are there to be used. You don't just skip ranks - that doesn't make sense. And it *definitely* doesn't make sense for a Cadet to go straight to Captain - not even if it's Kirk.

People do and have skipped ranks before in the military. And TOS-era Starfleet had a VERY high premium on captains' decisions, since they were more like 18th century naval commanders who were truly alone a lot of the time.

So yes, it is possible for a young Lieutenant made acting First Officer by a Captain, and later acting Captain (after relieving a former first officer who wasn't up to the task) to be left in command.

As an example, Jimmy Doolittle went from Lieutenant Colonel to Major General (three ranks, skipping Colonel entirely) in the span of 5 months. So while ranks are "meant to be used" not everyone progresses through them at the same rate, and sometimes ranks are NOT used.

At any rate, it's not totally outside the realm of possibility, especially if you're Kirk, a once in a generation hero.

Captain Robert April January 3 2009 12:26 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Kirk may have made Captain at a pretty young age in TOS, but he still had to rise through the ranks!

Sorry, but I don't give a fetid dingo's kidney how heroic this kid is, THERE IS NOW WAY IN HELL THAT ANY MILITARY ORGANIZATION WITH HALF A BRAIN CELL TO SHARE AMONG ITS COMMAND STAFF IS GOING TO GIVE COMMAND OF A MAJOR FRONTLINE SHIP TO SOMEONE WHO IS, LITERALLY, DAYS OUT OF THE ACADEMY!!

Forget the canon violations, it's the credibility violations that are gonna sink this one.

Rķu rķu, chķu January 3 2009 12:35 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Vigilance wrote: (Post 2462046)
So yes, it is possible for a young Lieutenant made acting First Officer by a Captain, and later acting Captain (after relieving a former first officer who wasn't up to the task) to be left in command.

Possible for a *lieutenant*, yes. But not for a bloody cadet.

Quote:

it's not totally outside the realm of possibility, especially if you're Kirk, a once in a generation hero
As I said, though...who knows if Kirk turns out that way in this timeline as well. His entire life has been altered. He could be very different now.

I mean, look at what happened to Picard in "Tapestry". In that alternate timeline, he grew up to be a worthless 60-something Lieutenant JG with no ambition. And that was just because he didn't get into one bar fight when he was already an adult officer! The change to Kirk's life is, arguably, even more serious, because it dates back to his own BIRTH and therefore changes his entire upbringing.

Vigilance January 3 2009 12:40 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2462102)
Quote:

Vigilance wrote: (Post 2462046)
So yes, it is possible for a young Lieutenant made acting First Officer by a Captain, and later acting Captain (after relieving a former first officer who wasn't up to the task) to be left in command.

Possible for a *lieutenant*, yes. But not for a bloody cadet.

Well- Kirk was an academy graduate, which means he WAS a Lt.

He just wasn't assigned a ship, because the bureaucrats didn't like him.

So he was a Lieutenant who skipped 2 grades (full Lt and Lt Cmdr).

And again, such things were much more common in the navies of old, which is what Trek is closer to.

Rķu rķu, chķu January 3 2009 12:42 AM

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers
 
Quote:

Vigilance wrote: (Post 2462112)
Quote:

Babaganoosh wrote: (Post 2462102)
Quote:

Vigilance wrote: (Post 2462046)
So yes, it is possible for a young Lieutenant made acting First Officer by a Captain, and later acting Captain (after relieving a former first officer who wasn't up to the task) to be left in command.

Possible for a *lieutenant*, yes. But not for a bloody cadet.

Well- Kirk was an academy graduate, which means he WAS a Lt.

AFAIK, he hasn't graduated yet. And even so, who have we ever seen graduate as a Lieutenant? There's no evidence that this happened to Kirk - in either timeline.

Quote:

And again, such things were much more common in the navies of old, which is what Trek is closer to.
And again as well...Starfleet is much closer to the current US Navy than to those old systems.


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