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A beaker full of death September 25 2008 05:56 AM

What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sku...rld_War_II_era

Quote:

In 1953, a Communist agent...assumed the identity of the Red Skull, pretending that he was the original.... During the 1950s, he faced the then active version of Captain America who was also using the identity of Steve Rogers, pretending to be the original.
Jesus Hubert Christ. In order to explain away failures in continuity that occurred decades later, and that, really, don't matter worth a goddamn, comics spend more time trying to appease nit-picking comic book guys than they do actually telling stories!!
Where one writer in the 1950s writes a captain america story featuring the red skull, and another 30 years later writes one that doesn't quite jibe, suddenly we have to explain that both the main characters of the first story weren't those characters at all!!
Marvel should've just said "fuck it" and awarded a no-prize to the most creative non-canonical fan explanation and brazenly gotten on with the business of telling Captain America stories!

Horseshit like this is why I miss the elegance of the DC Multiverse.

Psion September 25 2008 06:06 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
[A figure cloaked in a long, leather trenchcoat enters and moves close to the fire. Stretching his palms towards the flickering warmth, he turns very slightly towards you and speaks with sinister humor]

Vaat a pity you haaf problems mit continuity, Herr Death. Zat vill make zis so much more difficult for us both. Zees are times ven a vise man knows to keep his silence, you see.

zenophite September 25 2008 07:15 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
in many creative endeavours, continuity and canon went from a cute little way of playing with details and having some fun to a fucking geeky, pedantic, nitpicky circle jerk.

JNG September 25 2008 08:10 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

A beaker full of death wrote: (Post 2105963)

Horseshit like this is why I miss the elegance of the DC Multiverse.

Yes, this has become a comics-wide problem and will only intensify as time goes on...that, or relaunches every few years will become the norm, and that's not so great either.

Hermiod September 25 2008 08:10 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
^Especially if they're all as woefully bad as Infinite Crisis.

Nerys Myk September 25 2008 08:13 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

A beaker full of death wrote: (Post 2105963)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sku...rld_War_II_era

Quote:

In 1953, a Communist agent...assumed the identity of the Red Skull, pretending that he was the original.... During the 1950s, he faced the then active version of Captain America who was also using the identity of Steve Rogers, pretending to be the original.
Jesus Hubert Christ. In order to explain away failures in continuity that occurred decades later, and that, really, don't matter worth a goddamn, comics spend more time trying to appease nit-picking comic book guys than they do actually telling stories!!
Where one writer in the 1950s writes a captain america story featuring the red skull, and another 30 years later writes one that doesn't quite jibe, suddenly we have to explain that both the main characters of the first story weren't those characters at all!!
Marvel should've just said "fuck it" and awarded a no-prize to the most creative non-canonical fan explanation and brazenly gotten on with the business of telling Captain America stories!

Horseshit like this is why I miss the elegance of the DC Multiverse.

This happened decades ago. The 50s Cap appeared in 1970s and the second Skull in the 80s. Sudden would be a bit of an exaggeration. The 50s Cap gave us a good story. Commie Red Skull, not so much.

Hermiod September 25 2008 08:15 AM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 2106165)
This happened decades ago. The 50s Cap appeared in 1970s and the second Skull in the 80s. Sudden would be a bit of an exaggeration. The 50s Cap gave us a good story. Commie Red Skull, not so much.

Yet, despite all that, today we have Brubaker and Epting's Captain America which is the best thing you'll find in a comic book store.

Chris227 September 25 2008 01:22 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
This is mainly Roy Thomas's idea, I think (RT wrote a lot of stuff that reintroduced golden age Marvel heroes into 'modern' continuity). He wanted to explain why Captain America, Bucky, and Red Skull were active in the 50s although Stan had Captain America in the iceberg in the 40s. Hence, a 'fake' Captain America.


Funny thing is, even Amazing Spider-Man dwelved into this, during the 'robot parents' storyline:



http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/imag...mazing/366.jpg

Gojirob September 25 2008 02:58 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

Chris227 wrote: (Post 2106626)
This is mainly Roy Thomas's idea, I think (RT wrote a lot of stuff that reintroduced golden age Marvel heroes into 'modern' continuity). He wanted to explain why Captain America, Bucky, and Red Skull were active in the 50s although Stan had Captain America in the iceberg in the 40s. Hence, a 'fake' Captain America.


Funny thing is, even Amazing Spider-Man dwelved into this, during the 'robot parents' storyline:



http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/imag...mazing/366.jpg


Thing that struck me odd about that is this : The true Red Skull had files taken when he eliminated the Communist one, including the files on Peter's parents. Supposedly from hacking these, Peter learned that his parents were real. He took an enormous risk getting to these, and barely got away from Skull's forces in time. Okay. We know now that the parents were built by Chameleon and Harry in his craziest phase before his death.

Yet all that also means that Harry hacked Red Skull's files somehow and went undetected by a paranoid villain way out of his league with followers who know better than to keep such things from him. That puts Liz and Normie at risk, and however crazy Harry got, they were his first concern.
Too much speculation, I know, and I'm not demanding it be resolved. But all storylines should be thought through, and xovers, even in-universe, should be twice so.

Of course, now, no one ever knew who Peter is, and since Norman never died, Harry didn't create the androids--wow, did the Clone Saga ever take place? We know they kept the Gwen-twins.

(My head hirt now)

mostlyharmless September 25 2008 03:13 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

A beaker full of death wrote: (Post 2105963)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sku...rld_War_II_era

Quote:

In 1953, a Communist agent...assumed the identity of the Red Skull, pretending that he was the original.... During the 1950s, he faced the then active version of Captain America who was also using the identity of Steve Rogers, pretending to be the original.
Jesus Hubert Christ. In order to explain away failures in continuity that occurred decades later, and that, really, don't matter worth a goddamn, comics spend more time trying to appease nit-picking comic book guys than they do actually telling stories!!
Where one writer in the 1950s writes a captain america story featuring the red skull, and another 30 years later writes one that doesn't quite jibe, suddenly we have to explain that both the main characters of the first story weren't those characters at all!!
Marvel should've just said "fuck it" and awarded a no-prize to the most creative non-canonical fan explanation and brazenly gotten on with the business of telling Captain America stories!

Horseshit like this is why I miss the elegance of the DC Multiverse.

Before you cast judgement, have you read the current run of Captain American that uses this character? It is regarded by many as one the strongest and well crafted stories in decades. The plot, characterization, dialogue, and artwork have been, in my opinion, consistently excellent.

Bad Bishop September 25 2008 03:47 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
DC doesn't even have to invoke multiple universes in order to explain every single event that doesn't line up right. Instead, years later, they simply ignore crap that doesn't make sense. And that's why Selina Kyle (Catwoman) was never a prostitute.

Or was she? Maybe you folks can cite better examples of what DC doesn't consider to be "canon" any more. Hawkman fans, you go first.

ancient September 25 2008 04:08 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Is this a good time for me to post my thesis on Comics Continuity?


Ok, here it is:

It just don't add up! Fix it fix it fix it fix it....fix it fix it fix it fix it...fix it fix it fix it... Reboot! Crap, I liked it the way it used to be.

Norrin Radd September 25 2008 04:10 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
I used to be a continuity freak but now I say screw it...

Comics such as All-Star Superman have proved to me that all you need is to get the essence of the character right and good things will follow...keep what works and discard what doesn't.

Besides, continuity is not nearly as realistically obtained now as it was from the 60s to the early 90s, through which you could more easily suspend your disbelief in the sliding time line. But now it's just been too damn long to maintain that time line.

A beaker full of death September 25 2008 05:04 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

Bad Bishop wrote: (Post 2106947)
DC doesn't even have to invoke multiple universes in order to explain every single event that doesn't line up right. Instead, years later, they simply ignore crap that doesn't make sense.

And I honestly think that's right approach. Just tell a story. It doesn't have to match every detail of a story told 70 years ago (or two years ago).

Quote:

Bad Bishop wrote: (Post 2106947)
And that's why Selina Kyle (Catwoman) was never a prostitute.

Fucking Miller.

Quote:

Hawkman fans, you go first.
:D


Quote:

Norrin Radd wrote: (Post 2107009)
I used to be a continuity freak but now I say screw it... all you need is to get the essence of the character right and good things will follow...

Agreed.

Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 2106165)

This happened decades ago. The 50s Cap appeared in 1970s and the second Skull in the 80s. Sudden would be a bit of an exaggeration.

Just a way of talking. I was reading the article re the red skull and the absolute absurdity of it overwhelmed me. I couldn't even bear to dig into the part about Spiderman's parents. I'll happily live in ignorance on that count.

TheBrew September 25 2008 05:32 PM

Re: What the continuity nazis have wrought
 
Quote:

Norrin Radd wrote: (Post 2107009)
I used to be a continuity freak but now I say screw it...

Comics such as All-Star Superman have proved to me that all you need is to get the essence of the character right and good things will follow...keep what works and discard what doesn't.

Besides, continuity is not nearly as realistically obtained now as it was from the 60s to the early 90s, through which you could more easily suspend your disbelief in the sliding time line. But now it's just been too damn long to maintain that time line.

This. That is why I tend to prefer elseworlds are one-shot stories that play with the concept of the character in an interesting situation. I've been enjoying "Old Man Logan" for that very reason.


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