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KirkTrekModeler September 19 2007 07:52 PM

Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
What is canon, or pseudo-canon for a Refit Dreadnought? I know this may seem like a strange question, but I'm curious and would like the help of the most intelligent and knowledgable group of fans I know. That would be you, the regulars here in the Art Forum. Piutures would be most usefull. Thanks.

David cgc September 19 2007 08:59 PM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
You mean the three-engined Franz Joseph Federation-Class dreadnought?

Most of the time I've seen a refit version, it's looked like this and this.

vaderman1701 September 19 2007 11:44 PM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
KTM and I were having this discussion because I am working on refit dreadnought conversion parts for the 1/350th refit, but I know there are questiosn about what should be the "True" refit dreadnaught. The image you posted is the standard one everyone knows, but I have heard several people say that the secondary hull needs to be longer. I have also seen scematics with a shuttlebay inthe front and second deflector dish in the back. This would be more of a true refit of the classic Franz Joseph schematic.

Let us know your thougts.

Scott
AW Studios

Griffworks September 20 2007 12:13 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

vaderman1701 said:
KTM and I were having this discussion because I am working on refit dreadnought conversion parts for the 1/350th refit, but I know there are questiosn about what should be the "True" refit dreadnaught. The image you posted is the standard one everyone knows,

Because it's the first Refit version of the Federation-class dreadnought, as done by the fine folks at Starstation Aurora in the "magazine" entitled Starship Design - Interstellar Forum for Naval Power by Todd Guenther & Starstation Aurora. aridas sofia can elaborate more on the background, but it's generally accepted as being the first fan-produced Movie Era refit for the Federation-class.

Quote:

but I have heard several people say that the secondary hull needs to be longer.

Yes, by something like 25% or 30%. I forget what I had figured it to be, but have seen others use something pretty close to that. There's the matter of a pair of aft firing photorp tubes, as well.

Also, the primary hull B-C Deck area needs to be differently shaped, w/there being five window sections in the VIP Lounge area instead of four.
Quote:

I have also seen scematics with a shuttlebay inthe front and second deflector dish in the back. This would be more of a true refit of the classic Franz Joseph schematic.

That would also be the version seen in the Jackill's "Ships of the Fleet" series of books. In fact, I think it's in Volume One.

Quote:

Let us know your thougts.

I would go with the original version of the Federation-class refit, as done by Todd Guenther and company. For starters, it'll save you work because you won't have to come up with a second, slightly smaller navigational deflector array for the aft - something which makes little sense to me (sorry Eric!). You also won't have to use a new nav deflector for the front (the front and back might be the same size, but I don't recall for sure), as well as likely build a whole new secondary hull - or at least a completely new forward secondary hull piece, as well as the same for the aft section.

... and there you go. ;)

Wingsley September 20 2007 12:50 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

KirkTrekModeler said:
What is canon, or pseudo-canon for a Refit Dreadnought? I know this may seem like a strange question, but I'm curious and would like the help of the most intelligent and knowledgable group of fans I know. That would be you, the regulars here in the Art Forum. Piutures would be most usefull. Thanks.

If, by "canon" you mean on-screen display of a ship (or schematic of a ship) in a STAR TREK feature film, to my knowledge there has never been a dreadnought revealed, other than TNG's "All Good Things..." finale and some vaugue schematics on bridge viewscreens in various Kirk-era feature films. If memory serves, a Federation-class dreadnought starship was shown on a viewscreen in the background in TMP #3, but never shown "in the flesh" and never in a "refit" configuration.

One reason I never totally bought into the tri-nacelle concept was that Kirk introduced the Excelsior as "the Great Experiment". If three nacelles were better than two, wouldn't Starfleet have built Excelsior to that specification? (Or, for that matter, the refit Enterprise?)

Cary L. Brown September 20 2007 01:56 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
It all depends on what you're talking about.

There are two fan-design "refit era" dreadnoughts which were created back in the 1980s... the Ascension class (based upon the Belknap... essentially a "light Dreadnought") and the Federation Class (refit). I think you're talking about the Federation(r).

If you're talking about some other version (ie, one of the Jackill's variants) you can disregard all of this. But there was a set of VERY nicely done drawings of the Fed(r) done by StarStation Aurora way back when. I used those as my reference for a work-in-progress model I've only recently started revisiting.

Here is my Federation-class dreadnought, alongside an unpainted, out-of-the-box AMT kit. The surface finish of my parts is not perfect yet, but the shapes are nearly exact at this point.

First off... here's a comparison of the stock AMT secondary hull to the Federation(r)'s secondary hull. Note the following:

1) The secondary hull is significantly longer overall.
2) The hangar deck outboard platform is larger.
3) There is no Arboretum.
4) The layout of windows, gridlines, and docking ports is different.
5) The dorsal is significantly larger (my part here is VERY crude right now).
6) There are both forward and aft firing torpedo tubes.
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/6...cf0002awa0.jpg

There's another major difference that most people overlook. The B/C deck superstructure should be enlarged. Here's a stock AMT kit B/C-deck superstructure:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/1...cf0003aks1.jpg

and here is the enlarged Dreadnought version:
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7...cf0003bjo0.jpg

The idea is that the secondary hull internal configuration is significantly different... mainly due to the presence of twin matter/antimatter reactors instead of a single one in the Heavy Cruiser. The Federation(r) has twice the power output of the Enterprise, in other words. It pays for this by giving up certain amenities (like the arboretum). The hangar space is larger, and supports both shuttles and combat craft.

The primary hull has a different bridge module with two docking ports instead of just one. However, the bridge itself is just about the same. The main difference there lays in B and C decks, which are set up as Fleet Command Operations facilities. The Dreadnought is typically the flagship of a fleet, and is commanded by an Admiral in the Fleet Operations Center, while the ship's captain runs the ship itself from the Bridge. This is why the B/C deck section is larger... just more stuff going on there.

The other differences are better known... the engine nacelles on the secondary hull are on a flat, "wing-like" pylon rather than on twin angled pylons. The nacelle on the dorsal is different, however, and most people get this one wrong. If you're modeling it, you need to make it from two INSIDE nacelle halves, not two OUTSIDE halves. Of course, then you'll have to add intercooler fins, but better than than have the wrong "engine grill" detail. ;)

It's also worth noting that the positions of the "control reactor" ribs on the underside of the nacelles differs on the Federation(r) from that seen on the Enterprise.

Anyway, none of this is real so you can make it however you want... but if you're trying to do a Federation Class (refit) per the Fandom-created design, these are well-established by the folks who did the original designs.

KirkTrekModeler September 20 2007 02:13 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

Wingsley said:
Quote:

KirkTrekModeler said:
What is canon, or pseudo-canon for a Refit Dreadnought? I know this may seem like a strange question, but I'm curious and would like the help of the most intelligent and knowledgable group of fans I know. That would be you, the regulars here in the Art Forum. Piutures would be most usefull. Thanks.

If, by "canon" you mean on-screen display of a ship (or schematic of a ship) in a STAR TREK feature film, to my knowledge there has never been a dreadnought revealed, other than TNG's "All Good Things..." finale and some vaugue schematics on bridge viewscreens in various Kirk-era feature films. If memory serves, a Federation-class dreadnought starship was shown on a viewscreen in the background in TMP #3, but never shown "in the flesh" and never in a "refit" configuration.

OK, I think that's more what we're looking for. Anything that was even remotely seen on screen, or referenced on screen. That would make it as close to canon as we're going to get.

Griffworks September 20 2007 03:35 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

Wingsley said:
If, by "canon" you mean on-screen display of a ship (or schematic of a ship) in a STAR TREK feature film, to my knowledge there has never been a dreadnought revealed, other than TNG's "All Good Things..." finale and some vaugue schematics on bridge viewscreens in various Kirk-era feature films. If memory serves, a Federation-class dreadnought starship was shown on a viewscreen in the background in TMP #3, but never shown "in the flesh" and never in a "refit" configuration.

What you're talking about here is the TOS FJD Federation-class dreadnought, tho.

Related article at Trekplace.comForgotten Starships: "Canon" References to Star Trek Spacecraft Designed by Franz Joseph (from our very own Fal Tor Pan's website}

Griffworks September 20 2007 03:38 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

Cary L. Brown said:
It all depends on what you're talking about.

>SNIPPAGE!<

Anyway, none of this is real so you can make it however you want... but if you're trying to do a Federation Class (refit) per the Fandom-created design, these are well-established by the folks who did the original designs.

Hey! There's an echo in here! Well, almost. I failed to mention the botanical section. :)

KirkTrekModeler September 20 2007 03:48 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Quote:

Cary L. Brown said:
It all depends on what you're talking about.

There are two fan-design "refit era" dreadnoughts which were created back in the 1980s... the Ascension class (based upon the Belknap... essentially a "light Dreadnought") and the Federation Class (refit). I think you're talking about the Federation(r).


The idea is that the secondary hull internal configuration is significantly different... mainly due to the presence of twin matter/antimatter reactors instead of a single one in the Heavy Cruiser. The Federation(r) has twice the power output of the Enterprise, in other words. It pays for this by giving up certain amenities (like the arboretum). The hangar space is larger, and supports both shuttles and combat craft.

The primary hull has a different bridge module with two docking ports instead of just one. However, the bridge itself is just about the same. The main difference there lays in B and C decks, which are set up as Fleet Command Operations facilities. The Dreadnought is typically the flagship of a fleet, and is commanded by an Admiral in the Fleet Operations Center, while the ship's captain runs the ship itself from the Bridge. This is why the B/C deck section is larger... just more stuff going on there.

The other differences are better known... the engine nacelles on the secondary hull are on a flat, "wing-like" pylon rather than on twin angled pylons. The nacelle on the dorsal is different, however, and most people get this one wrong. If you're modeling it, you need to make it from two INSIDE nacelle halves, not two OUTSIDE halves. Of course, then you'll have to add intercooler fins, but better than than have the wrong "engine grill" detail. ;)

It's also worth noting that the positions of the "control reactor" ribs on the underside of the nacelles differs on the Federation(r) from that seen on the Enterprise.

Anyway, none of this is real so you can make it however you want... but if you're trying to do a Federation Class (refit) per the Fandom-created design, these are well-established by the folks who did the original designs.

That's all good information and some really fine work there Cary, but I'm guessing there is no canon Refit Dreadnought?

I'm very familiar with the FJ designs, but I'm really interested in any on screen ref to a Refit era Dread. Thanks again.

Did you finish that ship?

David cgc September 20 2007 04:07 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Nope. The only possible places for an on-screen Refit Dreadnought would be the monitors in Treks I-III, or as a member of the Frankenstein fleets in Deep Space Nine. Both of those have been documented and described in such detail that I don't think something as recognizable as a dreadnought could've slipped through the cracks.

KirkTrekModeler September 20 2007 04:11 AM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
Well, thanks David. I guess we're going to have to go with "most accepted non-canon." Oh well, such is life.

Forbin September 20 2007 01:04 PM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
For my money, a refit DN would have to have the same features as the FJ DN - larger primary and secondary hulls, and foreward-mounted shuttlebay. Note that the FJ DN's primary hull has no undercut, and a "dome" shape that is equal top and bottom. To be true to the concept, one would have to create whole new parts from scratch!

137th Gebirg September 20 2007 02:54 PM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
There were several refits - even variations on the original FJ design as it initially appeared in the Technical Manual. Here's the chronology:

Federation Class Dreadnaught "Proposed" - Initial FJ Design (for comparison)
Federation Class Dreadnaught "Production" - Modified FJ Design (with rotated tertiary nacelle 90 degrees for warp field symmetry and continuity)
Federation Class Dreadnaught Upgrade "Proposed" (Starstation Aurora)
Federation Class Dreadnaught Upgrade "Production" (someone thought the engine pylons were too low on the first version, so they raised them and made them horizontally linked across the top of the secondary hull - a sensible mod, IMHO)
Star League Class Dreadnaught (Jackill's version - more true to the FJ original with the forward-facing shuttlebay)

And the short answer - aside from the fact that (IIRC) one FJ-named dreadnaught was mentioned in comm traffic out of Epsilon 9 in ST:TMP, all these designs are largely considered non-canon.

RyanKCR September 20 2007 04:32 PM

Re: Refit Dreadnought.... Question?
 
This is also this variation: Ascension


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