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JonoKyle July 24 2014 01:09 PM

Admirals of Starfleet
 
I have recently been re-reading many of the novels set between the TNG 'A time to' series and Destiny series and am wondering if the position titles of the admirals that were prominent during this period (2378 to 2381) have ever been determined. From what I have read I have worked out the following and just wanted to see if I was close or had it wrong?

From my understanding the three highest positions within Starfleet are the ‘Commander-in-Chief’ (C-in-C), ‘Commander, Starfleet’ and Chief of Staff.

In A Time to Heal it seem Jellico, Nechayev, Nakamura, Ross & Paris all held high ranking positions in either command or security. Since none seemed to be the C-in-C, I presume at least one of them had to be either the Commander, Starfleet or Chief of Staff to have a meeting of this importance.

In Before Dishonour it seem Jellico held a high ranking position, yet when talking to Seven indicates there were higher positions above him and both Jellico & Nechayev positions were roughly equal.

In Lost Souls it seem Jellico, Nechayev & Nakamura are the three most senior admirals - so I presume Nechayev was Starfleet Command Commanding Officer & Nakamura was either Chief of Staff or Chief of Starfleet Operations.

So out of the prominent ones I have:

Leonard James Akaar
78-80 – Starfleet Mission Operations?
80-81 - Liaison to the President
81 onwards C-in-C

Marta Batanides
78-85 – Either Chief or Deputy Chief of Starfleet Intelligence
85 onwards – Chief of Starfleet Intelligence

Kathryn Janeway
78-80 - Starfleet Mission Operations? Until her death

Edward Jellico
78-80 – Senior position within Starfleet Operations
80 – possibly Chief of Starfleet Operations or Chief of Staff?
81 – C-in-C before retiring

Tujiro Nakamura
78-81 – possibly Chief of Starfleet Operations or Chief of Staff?

Alynna Nechayev
78-80 – Senior position within Starfleet Internal Affairs/Security, or possibly Commander, Starfleet
81 – Commander, Starfleet

Owen Paris
78 onwards – Senior position within Starfleet Operations on Earth
81 – resigned/transferred to accept command of Starbase 234 possibly due to incident in In A Time to Heal.

William Ross
78-80 – Chief of Starfleet Security? possibly Commander, Starfleet
80 - Liaison to the President before retiring

The Wormhole July 24 2014 02:20 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
I thought Akaar always was Starfleet's CinC since he was first introduced in the Mission Gamma books?

Paris July 24 2014 05:01 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Wasn't Jellico C-in-C in Destiny? He resigned due his perceived failure, right?

Csalem July 24 2014 05:33 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
I think Before Dishonor was the first mention of Jellicoe being C-in-C. I think he had a line about finally getting to the top of Starfleet only to be killed as the Borg cube headed for Earth. (Of course, he didn't die).

zarkon July 24 2014 06:04 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Jellico resigned in Losing the Peace due to the massive casulties in the borg invasion, and Akaar takes over.

Dunno who was in charge between Shanthi & Jellico though

Enterprise1701 July 24 2014 10:28 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
I like discussing this issue. I'm pretty sure that before Jellico in the Destiny trilogy, no Star Trek work had a C-in-C even though it should have except William "Bill" Smilie in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and Taela Shanthi in 2368 as mentioned in the script of TNG: "Redemption II", but dialogue never stated her to be at the absolute top or anything.

I've compiled this list of absolute heads of Starfleet:
Robert L. "Bob" Comsol -2253-2270 (TOS: "The Menagerie" background materials had him as the primary officer issuing a Starfleet General Order and DTI: Forgotten History states him to be the "commanding officer of Starfleet" and part of Starfleet Command)
Heihachiro Nogura 2270-2274- (DTI: Forgotten History established him as Comsol's successor)
John Jason "Blackjack" Harriman, Sr. -2289-2290- (Excelsior: Forged in Fire states him as the "current C-in-C")
William "Bill" Smilie -2293- ("C in C" as stated above)
Margaret Sinclair-Alexander -2311-2319- (TLE: Serpents Among the Ruins and One Constant Star have her as "Starfleet commander in chief")
Edward James Jellico -2381 ("commander-in-chief" in Destiny)
Leonard James Akaar 2381-2385- ("commander-in-chief" or "commanding officer of Starfleet Command" in various novels)

Other notes:
The Rise of the Federation ENT miniseries so far has 5 joint chiefs of staff of Starfleet and no singular head.
Excelsior: Forged in Fire has Admiral Cartwright as the Chief of Starfleet Operations in late 2289/early 2290
TLE: Catalyst of Sorrows has Admiral Uhura as "head of Starfleet Intelligence" in 2360
The Sky's the Limit - "Meet with Triumph and Disaster" has Admiral Norah Satie as the chief of Starfleet Operations and Admiral Gregory Quinn as being in charge of Starfleet's exploratory division in 2363
In TNG: "The Drumhead", Vice Admiral Thomas Henry is Chief of Starfleet Security in 2367
TNG: "The Pegasus" has Admiral Raner as Chief of Starfleet Security in 2370
Let's not forget that infamous Leyton affair of 2372 when Captain Sisko was Chief of Starfleet Security!
S.C.E. #63 - What's Past: Echoes of Coventry has Admiral Batanides as the "commander of Starfleet Intelligence" in 2375
The Genesis Wave, Book 3 mentions an Admiral Rendelez as "Chief of Starfleet Command" in 2377
Vulcan's Soul: Exodus states that Admiral Uhura is "chief of intelligence" in 2377
Blind Man's Bluff has Jellico as the "head of Starfleet operations" although that NF novel has a lot of incongruities with the rest of the modern novelverse
Destiny - Lost Souls states "In the scant months since Jellico had ascended to Starfleet's top flag office"
Losing the Peace stated that Jellico was the "commander of Starfleet" and later the officer delivering the death notice for T'Ryssa Chen's mother says "the president and the commander in chief of Starfleet offer their condolences"
The Fall - A Ceremony of Losses has Batanides as the "flag officer in charge of Starfleet Intelligence" in 2385


All this makes me wonder how Beverly Crusher could have been the head of Starfleet Medical during TNG season 2 and just after Star Trek Nemesis if she's only a commander. It makes no sense to me.

Deranged Nasat July 24 2014 11:05 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Great list, Enterprise. (I feel strange addressing a starship :p).

As you say, Uhura is still the head of Starfleet Intelligence in 2377, as shown in Vulcan's Soul. However, as you also note, SCE has Batanides in that role by 2375, and I think Hollow Men also names her as head of SI (2374) - and possibly Rogue has her holding the position in 2372? (It's been a long time, I don't remember). I've wondered if that can be resolved by Uhura remaining the real head of SI while Batanides takes the public role? Or that even if Uhura has handed over the reigns to Batanides, she's retained as a sort of shadow chief? (I assume one does not really retire from the leadership of Starfleet Intelligence. I assume you're in the centre of that web until you die). As of 2385, though, Batanides has apparently fully inherited the post.

DEWLine July 24 2014 11:06 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Dr. Crusher was likely the head of the Medical operations of Starfleet on Earth itself. Nowhere else in Sol system or Sol Sector. That might be a sufficiently limited role for someone of Commander's rank.

Enterprise1701 July 24 2014 11:23 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

Deranged Nasat wrote: (Post 9884866)
Great list, Enterprise. (I feel strange addressing a starship :p).

Thanks. I wish I could modify my username to something else. But why don't you tack on "1701" at the end?
Quote:

As you say, Uhura is still the head of Starfleet Intelligence in 2377, as shown in Vulcan's Soul. However, as you also note, SCE has Batanides in that role by 2375, and I think Hollow Men also names her as head of SI (2374) - and possibly Rogue has her holding the position in 2372? (It's been a long time, I don't remember). I've wondered if that can be resolved by Uhura remaining the real head of SI while Batanides takes the public role? Or that even if Uhura has handed over the reigns to Batanides, she's retained as a sort of shadow chief? (I assume one does not really retire from the leadership of Starfleet Intelligence. I assume you're in the centre of that web until you die). As of 2385, though, Batanides has apparently fully inherited the post.
Quote:

DEWLine wrote: (Post 9884872)
Dr. Crusher was likely the head of the Medical operations of Starfleet on Earth itself. Nowhere else in Sol system or Sol Sector. That might be a sufficiently limited role for someone of Commander's rank.

Good thinking, guys.

Deranged Nasat July 25 2014 12:50 AM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

Enterprise1701 wrote: (Post 9884953)
But why don't you tack on "1701" at the end?

I'm being familiar. I wouldn't want to give you the full-name-and-registry ultimatum. ;)

"Enterprise 1701, you get in here this instant! Oooh, just wait until your chief designer gets home!"

trampledamage July 25 2014 04:44 AM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

Enterprise1701 wrote: (Post 9884953)
Thanks. I wish I could modify my username to something else. But why don't you tack on "1701" at the end?

It is possible to change your username if you want to. Send a PM to T'Bonz, put your old name in your signature and she'll change it for you (not immediately because she does them in batches, but soon enough)


Or we could just call you Ent :D

Markonian July 25 2014 10:30 AM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

trampledamage wrote: (Post 9886399)

Or we could just call you Ent :D

Or Ente. :rommie:


Do we know whether the CinC; Commander, Starfleet, etc. are just different titles for the same position (like addressing a LCMDR as commander), or acutally different positions?

JonoKyle July 25 2014 01:04 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

Markonian wrote: (Post 9887068)
Do we know whether the CinC; Commander, Starfleet, etc. are just different titles for the same position (like addressing a LCMDR as commander), or acutally different positions?

I am not sure if it has ever been confirmed, but from my understanding the four most senior positions within Starfleet in order were:

Commander-in-Chief - Overall person in charge of Starfleet.

Chief of Staff - Commander-in-Chief's deputy

Commander, Starfleet - Person in charge of Starfleet services on Earth/Sol sector only, including Starfleet HQ & Academy. Chief of Staff would most likely be their direct supervisor.

Chief of Starfleet Operations - Overall person in charge of the individual divisions with Starfleet (Security, Fleet Ops, Intelligence, Medical etc.). Chief of Staff would most likely be their direct supervisor.

Christopher July 25 2014 02:19 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

JonoKyle wrote: (Post 9887260)
Chief of Starfleet Operations - Overall person in charge of the individual divisions with Starfleet (Security, Fleet Ops, Intelligence, Medical etc.).

I don't think that's right. After all, "Fleet Ops" is short for "Starfleet Operations," so how it be just one division yet also be in charge of all the divisions including itself?

From what I was told when I researched the question for Ex Machina, it would probably be analogous to the US Chief of Naval Operations, who's responsible for the command and control of the ships of the fleet, supervising their deployments and operations, and overseeing their maintenance, refits, etc. As Dayton Ward explained it to me in a post on the PsiPhi message board (which I can't link to anymore, but copied in my notes):

Quote:

Dayton Ward wrote:
One thing to remember is that "Starfleet Operations" would only be one department within the overall structure of Starfleet. The highest ranking admiral, Nogura in this example, would have several "chiefs" under him (using the US Navy as a template):

Chief of Starfleet Operations
Chief of Starfleet Personnel
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence
Chief of Starfleet Education/Training

and so on (trying to keep it simple. :))
In the modern navy, each of these is usually a 3-4 star admiral, and then the tree structure starts to spread out within each department from there. The CSO would not be making decisions regarding the Academy, or Intelligence, but instead coordinating with the appropriate chief to secure resources/etc to accomplish whatever it was they needed done. Therefore one "chief" really isn't running the entire fleet, but rather performing just those duties that fall under his/her particular umbrella.

In other words, the CSO would pretty much be to Starfleet as a whole what Data is to the Enterprise or Harry Kim to Voyager -- the officer responsible for allocating and coordinating the resources and personnel necessary to carry out the commanding officer's orders and working with other department heads to determine how that needs to be done.

So I think the description you offer for CSO should really be for the commanding admiral, e.g. Nogura. Which is probably the same thing as either "Commander, Starfleet" or Chief of Staff, I'm not sure.

Mr. Laser Beam July 25 2014 03:23 PM

Re: Admirals of Starfleet
 
Quote:

JonoKyle wrote: (Post 9887260)
Quote:

Markonian wrote: (Post 9887068)
Do we know whether the CinC; Commander, Starfleet, etc. are just different titles for the same position (like addressing a LCMDR as commander), or acutally different positions?

I am not sure if it has ever been confirmed, but from my understanding the four most senior positions within Starfleet in order were:

Commander-in-Chief - Overall person in charge of Starfleet.

Chief of Staff - Commander-in-Chief's deputy

Commander, Starfleet - Person in charge of Starfleet services on Earth/Sol sector only, including Starfleet HQ & Academy. Chief of Staff would most likely be their direct supervisor.

Chief of Starfleet Operations - Overall person in charge of the individual divisions with Starfleet (Security, Fleet Ops, Intelligence, Medical etc.). Chief of Staff would most likely be their direct supervisor.

I always thought those were all different names for the same position: the top admiral in Starfleet.


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