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-   -   "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=239779)

sonak March 7 2014 05:59 PM

"Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Is it just me or does the doctor's breakdown seem like bad programming? Wouldn't programmers for an EMH program know that a situation would come up where the Doctor would have to make decisions among patients that would inevitably result in one of them dying? Putting aside the absurdity of two patients in a scenario having EXACTLY EQUAL chances of survival(wouldn't their relative health at the time, genetics, etc. mean that it would be impossible for both to respond the same way to an injury?) an EMH program has to realize that patients under his care would die. Heck, if he breaks down over this, what about a scenario where an EMH might mis-diagnose something, leading to a preventable death from the wrong treatment or treatment not given?

MacLeod March 7 2014 06:52 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Well the Voyager EMH is a bit of a unique case, as the EMH was designed to suppliment the onboard medical staff not replace them. So I doubt they even thought that the EMH would be the only Doctor onbaord a ship.

But you could say why wasn't one of them placed in stasis, so one could be treated then the other.

King Daniel Into Darkness March 7 2014 11:40 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
The issue in "Latent Image" wasn't from the Doc's original programming, but because he was left on and allowed to grow for many years. He SHOULD have been fine picking someone at random, but since he'd grown to know and liked someone better and chose them, the conflict arose.

JanewayRulz! March 8 2014 12:13 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
I look at Latent Image as the real "birth" of sentience in the EMH. He has a problem that software engineers CAN'T program away. LI was his Koybayashi Maru and he failed.

Remember what Kirk said to Savik...

KIRK: A no-win situation is a possibility every commander may face. Has that never occurred to you?
SAAVIK: No sir. It has not.
KIRK: How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?

Of course there can be two situations with equal probability of survival/death.

How one chooses and how well one deals with the choice is the stuff of great literature and personal growth.

Ro_Laren March 8 2014 02:09 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Yeah, perhaps Dr. Zimmerman did program the original EMH with some sort of algorithm to choose between two patients. But, who knows how much B'Elanna & company messed up his programming by their changes.

sonak March 8 2014 03:03 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9333598)
The issue in "Latent Image" wasn't from the Doc's original programming, but because he was left on and allowed to grow for many years. He SHOULD have been fine picking someone at random, but since he'd grown to know and liked someone better and chose them, the conflict arose.



I guess, but it seems like an example in Trek, like in "I, Borg" where the writers seem to think that a computer program or AI will just have break downs over relatively minor things that shouldn't really trip up a program.

Mr. Laser Beam March 8 2014 04:53 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
The EMH has got some nerve thinking that 1) he's the only doctor who's ever lost a patient, and 2) he's somehow "above" having to make decisions as to which patient should live and which should die. Every doctor in history has had to make decisions like that; the EMH isn't "better" just because he's a computer program. He deserved to be slapped because of that stupid ego trip he had.

That being said: Obviously the EMH wouldn't deliberately let Jetal die, but maybe it was subconscious. In which case he's obviously not responsible. No one is ever responsible for a subconscious act - that's logically impossible.

And let's be frank: Anything that helps him make a decision, given two absolutely equal choices, is kind of a good thing. Either Harry dies, Jetal dies, or both die. The EMH was at a roadblock, so to speak: he couldn't decide. He was waffling about it, and something had to break that deadlock.

So maybe his friendship with Harry subconsciously influenced his decision. That may seem harsh, but if the alternative is that both Harry and Jetal die, it's better that only ONE of them die; anything that helps him make a decision as to who, even if it's totally 'automatic' and blameless, is better than nothing. Something had to help the Doctor make a decision, so even if it was something arbitrary like this, that's better than the Doctor making no decision at all and letting both patients die.

The very fact that the Doctor felt guilty about it, is reason enough to let him off the hook. If he was as bad as he accused himself of being, he wouldn't have cared. He clearly did care, so he had the presence of mind to feel bad about it. That's entirely normal - sentient beings do that. It's part of what it means to be sentient.

On the other hand: Perhaps it wasn't the Doctor's friendship with Harry that (subconsciously) influenced him, but the fact that Harry was a bridge officer. Being one, Harry was - arguably - more valuable to the crew than Jetal was. Somebody should have pointed that out.

Danny99 March 8 2014 04:55 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9333598)
The issue in "Latent Image" wasn't from the Doc's original programming, but because he was left on and allowed to grow for many years. He SHOULD have been fine picking someone at random, but since he'd grown to know and liked someone better and chose them, the conflict arose.

Exactly. In his own words, he was only meant to "short term emergency supplement" to the medical staff. His program grew, hence the dilemma.

Akiraprise March 8 2014 09:50 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Quote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: (Post 9334486)

On the other hand: Perhaps it wasn't the Doctor's friendship with Harry that (subconsciously) influenced him, but the fact that Harry was a bridge officer. Being one, Harry was - arguably - more valuable to the crew than Jetal was. Somebody should have pointed that out.

Can the Doctor have a subconscious? Should he have really been able to daydream and lose himself from time to time? He is a computer program capable of performing thousands of calculations a second (maybe). He should have immediately calculated that Kim was more valuable to the crew than Jetal without any issues.

Mr. Laser Beam March 9 2014 01:41 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
^ The Doctor is a sentient life form, therefore yes, he can have a subconscious. Kinda goes with the territory.

JirinPanthosa March 9 2014 07:46 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
@Mr Laser Beam

But real Doctors have had years of training and experience that led them build up a barrier between their personal feelings and their medical decisions. The Doctor is an emotional infant, his personal feelings were just beginning to exist, he didn't have that barrier.

I think the episode would have worked better if they hadn't approached it that way and started after erasing his memory.

Triskelion March 20 2014 06:22 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
I think if he were really being objective, from a species' survival point of view - or even a lost starship crew's view - a more human doctor might have chosen the "baby oven" over the "sperm donor." If you'll forgive the shorthand. As I'm sure the doctor was well aware, being programmed with virtually all of medical history, a mother having to make a choice between a drowning infant or toddler will more often choose the toddler, since it has survived the multivariate health risks of infancy. This is arguably a species-hardwired instinct.

In other words, all things being truly equal between the patients' chances of survival, a human would have made a certain kind of choice that a program, being PC (ha), did not make. The EMH lacked "gender bias." So you could argue it made him less human, in fact. Or at least less chivalrous, which, Harry certainly would have been.

It's not about inequality but survival of a tribe. All things being equal, how could you not consider reproductive fitness? Yes, these were individuals, but they were also part of a starship crew on a lifelong mission. What kind of medical officer does not consider the long term impact on the ship and crew?

Ok, I know, they only have an hour to tell a story....

Mr. Laser Beam March 20 2014 06:54 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
^ Are you suggesting that the EMH should have let Jetal live on the pretext that, as a possible mother, she could have mothered babies who would increase the crew's gene pool?

I suppose a computer program would have considered that, but the point of the whole mission is simply to get home again. And there are plenty of other female crewmembers who could have filled this role. There's no danger of Voyager's crew not having a valid gene pool simply because of Jetal's death.

Triskelion March 20 2014 08:29 PM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
Quote:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: (Post 9382099)
^ Are you suggesting that the EMH should have let Jetal live on the pretext that, as a possible mother, she could have mothered babies who would increase the crew's gene pool?

I suppose a computer program would have considered that, but the point of the whole mission is simply to get home again. And there are plenty of other female crewmembers who could have filled this role. There's no danger of Voyager's crew not having a valid gene pool simply because of Jetal's death.

All things being equal, that's even less reason to consider Harry. Plenty of male crew could replace him, and even a vial of his own stuff could be harvested and still get the job done, ladies.

Had they been given the choice themselves, I bet Harry would have won the argument and have self-sacrificed, and I bet Jetal would have let him. Just opinion.

JarodRussell March 21 2014 03:28 AM

Re: "Latent Image" and tthe Doctor's breakdown
 
The problem was that the Doctor made his decision based on personal preference (he “liked“ one person more, so he saved that one), which was never intended by the creator. It wasn't a logical decision that his ethical subroutines were designed for.


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