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Warped9 February 25 2014 05:37 AM

The Redshirt Myth?
 
TOS is known for being hard on Redshirts. The idea is if you're in security then you're probably not coming back.

But is it really true or just an exaggerated accepted cliche? In GR's TMP novelization he states 94 of the crew died a violent death during the 5-year voyage. Now it's up in the air whether this book can be considered canon, but it certainly doesn't gel with what we saw onscreen.

I just did a quick tally (and anyone feel free to correct me) and this is what I came up with:

(Red) Security personnel: 19
(Red) Support Services: 8
(Blue) Sciences: 3
(Gold) Command: 7

Total: 37

That's the total for the series with the bulk of those happening in the second season. Of those 37 casualties 27 of them are redshirts and 8 of those are Engineering or Support Services. Overall casualties averaged over 3 years = 12.3 deaths per year.

Actually 3 of those deaths happened before the 5-year voyage: Kelso, Mitchell and Dehner. That brings the average down to 11.3 deaths per year.

If we assume this average carried over the remaining two years then we could expect another 22-23 deaths before the end of the voyage. That would mean a total of 57-58 deaths in total during the 5-year voyage. That's quite a few short of the 94 GR states in his TMP novelization.

Now if we accept TAS as the forth year of the voyage then that skews the numbers even more because no Enterprise casualties occurred throughout TAS. So we have to deduct at least 11 from the total which leaves us with 47 total over five years.

47 casualties over five years is half of what GR states in his book. That's a huge discrepancy. Of 47 we have 19 Security casualties over three years averaging 6.3 per year. With that average (and no deaths seen in TAS) we could expect a total of 25-26 Security casualties over the five years.


It seems to me that perhaps the Redshirt Myth might yet be another exaggerated cliche. Of course, this cliche could have gotten a boost from the bulk of Security casualties in second season: 12. That is effectively double the yearly average and a chunk of those happened in a few episodes: "The Changeling" and "Obsession."


Thoughts?

Geoff Peterson February 25 2014 05:58 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
I don't think what we see in TOS/TAS is the entirety of the Enterprise's "5 Year Mission". Other deaths could have occurred between episodes. So there's no way to accurately calculate what the casualty rate was. "Insufficient data" as Spock might say,

The numbers do show that security is more deadly than other jobs.

Of course it's an exaggeration, but one based on what the show presents. Security are nameless extras for the most part and therefore cannon fodder. Away to show that the situation is serious and dangerous for our heroes.

Is it a cliche? Yes, but not one unique to Star Trek, though Trek has given it a name.

DonIago February 25 2014 06:54 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
I agree with Nerys that there's no reason to believe we saw the entirety of the mission.

And it's not unrealistic to think a single disastrous mission could kill 20 redshirts in one go. We likely saw a very small glimpse of Enterprise's variety of missions, especially given that the show had obvious real-world limitations.

Warped9 February 25 2014 07:04 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
But that isn't what we see onscreen. If it's not seen or not referenced then it doesn't really count.

People have accepted a cliché that Kirk made it with the green chicks, but it never happened...until ST09. We have people accepting that being a redshirt is effectively an automatic death sentence, but that isn't what we see.

DonIago February 25 2014 07:06 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Since it's never referenced that we saw the entire 5 year mission, it doesn't count.

I never thought being a redshirt was an automatic death sentence (beyond as a source of amusement), but realistically, being in security is all about being able and willing to take the risks to defend your crewmates. It would be bizarre if they did not have a disproportionately high mortality rate assuming the ship's engaging in missions with any appreciable dangers.

Warped9 February 25 2014 07:11 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

DonIago wrote: (Post 9289639)
Since it's never referenced that we saw the entire 5 year mission, it doesn't count.

I never thought being a redshirt was an automatic death sentence (beyond as a source of amusement), but realistically, being in security is all about being able and willing to take the risks to defend your crewmates.

Yes. But I mention the myth because it's a popular one with the general audience who often aren't knowledgeable about Trek. My thought was their accepted myth doesn't really hold up based on the episodes that they could have seen. Whole stretches of episodes go by without anyone dying.

Geoff Peterson February 25 2014 07:14 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289633)
But that isn't what we see onscreen. If it's not seen or not referenced then it doesn't really count.

People have accepted a cliché that Kirk made it with the green chicks, but it never happened...until ST09. We have people accepting that being a redshirt is effectively an automatic death sentence, but that isn't what we see.

If we accept what's on screen the mission lasted roughly 79 hours.

Both are jokes. People having fun with some of the tropes of the show.

Warped9 February 25 2014 07:16 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9289660)
Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289633)
But that isn't what we see onscreen. If it's not seen or not referenced then it doesn't really count.

People have accepted a cliché that Kirk made it with the green chicks, but it never happened...until ST09. We have people accepting that being a redshirt is effectively an automatic death sentence, but that isn't what we see.

If we accept what's on screen the mission lasted roughly 79 hours.

Both are jokes. People having fun with some of the tropes of the show.

Yeah, and this is just for discussion. I don't really care one way or the other.

Cyke101 February 25 2014 07:37 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9289459)
Is it a cliche? Yes, but not one unique to Star Trek, though Trek has given it a name.

Right. Other fiction have done it before and after the show, but TOS (or rather, its fans) made it popular. TOS didn't just present the trope, it became the Trope Namer.

I love the first sentence description, too: "This is the Good Counterpart of Evil Minions and Mooks — set filler for our heroes' side."

I also love that the Red Shirt is also related to The Red Shirt Army and The Worf Effect. If anything, it goes to show Trek's influence on TV writing, which is very much an endearing testament to the franchise's impact on television.

But ahem, back on topic, according to this website referenced in the Red Shirt article, the percentage of crewmen killed is 73% red shirt, which is still high enough, imo, to make red shirts the Good Minions of TOS and enough to justify some aspects of the "myth." Some of those truths come with the job, after all -- everybody knows that serving in Starfleet is dangerous, and if you sign up for a security detail, you're going to be at the forefront of what is already a dangerous job.

ZapBrannigan February 25 2014 08:25 AM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289375)
I just did a quick tally (and anyone feel free to correct me) and this is what I came up with:

(Red) Security personnel: 19
(Red) Support Services: 8
(Blue) Sciences: 3
(Gold) Command: 7

Total: 37

That's the total for the series with the bulk of those happening in the second season. Of those 37 casualties 27 of them are redshirts and 8 of those are Engineering or Support Services. Overall casualties averaged over 3 years = 12.3 deaths per year.


In WNMHGB, Spock reports "Casualties: nine dead," so that should be added to the three you reported. But their shirts are unseen.

Also, along with "Obsession" and "The Changeling", I would add "The Apple" as a major redshirt killer.

"By Any Other Name" has a shocking choice of (red-dressed) victims. Did you tally up how many female crew members Kirk lost overall?

And out of curiosity, how did you interpret the events of "Charlie X"? Did the Thasians save anybody, like the girl turned in to a lizard and the one whose face was wiped out? [Or, better to my liking, her face was briefly covered with a mask that she tore off moments after we leave her.]

Mr. Spook February 25 2014 02:54 PM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Well, I don't think it's a myth simply because the overwhelming percentage of shown deaths involved guys and gals in red uniforms. I think only Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea killed off more crewmembers. Usually played by the same four or five stunt and background dudes, but still...

Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289375)
Actually 3 of those deaths happened before the 5-year voyage: Kelso, Mitchell and Dehner. That brings the average down to 11.3 deaths per year.

There’s nothing to suggest that WNMGB was “before the 5 year mission” other than changes in casts, sets and costumes. So the 12 dead people in the episode should be counted in the 5 year mission totals. Yeah, there's a fan assumption it happened before the 5 year tour because of all the changes but....

Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289633)
But that isn't what we see onscreen. If it's not seen or not referenced then it doesn't really count…People accepting that being a red shirt is effectively an automatic death sentence, but that isn't what we see.

...we can look at the series in one of two ways: 1) as real events where things happened in between episodes and after the series ended; or 2) as a TV series where all that happened was what we saw on screen, and changes in casts, sets and costumes were all just part of what happens during TV series production. ;)

There are a lot of accepted myths about Star Trek, mostly about Kirk (banging green women every week, his swagger, pausing every...third...word, etc.) and red shirts. The red shirts thing, though, is pretty well earned.

Christopher February 25 2014 03:13 PM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289375)
In GR's TMP novelization he states 94 of the crew died a violent death during the 5-year voyage. Now it's up in the air whether this book can be considered canon, but it certainly doesn't gel with what we saw onscreen.

It's not up in the air at all. "Canon" means the original core material as distinct from adaptations and pastiches in other media. And Roddenberry himself contradicted the novelization when he made TNG, because nobody in the 24th-century Starfleet had communications implants in their brains.

Not that Roddenberry minded rewriting actual canon either, of course. Like many writers, he was willing to contradict and overwrite details of his earlier works that he'd come to reconsider or regret.


Quote:

If we assume this average carried over the remaining two years then we could expect another 22-23 deaths before the end of the voyage. That would mean a total of 57-58 deaths in total during the 5-year voyage.
But that's a very unwise assumption to make. At best it's just a rough order-of-magnitude approximation; one certainly can't take it too seriously as an expectation. A single disastrous incident could kill dozens.



Quote:

Warped9 wrote: (Post 9289633)
But that isn't what we see onscreen. If it's not seen or not referenced then it doesn't really count.

Then why are you treating a figure from a novel as a legitimate data point? You can't have it both ways.


Quote:

People have accepted a cliché that Kirk made it with the green chicks, but it never happened...until ST09.
Marta would be offended to be so easily forgotten.



Quote:

ZapBrannigan wrote: (Post 9289768)
And out of curiosity, how did you interpret the events of "Charlie X"? Did the Thasians save anybody, like the girl turned in to a lizard and the one whose face was wiped out?

The Thasian said outright, "We have returned your people and your ship to you. Everything is as it was." And of course we saw Janice being brought back from oblivion. There's no reason the Thasians would've saved one yeoman and abandoned everyone else.


Quote:

ssosmcin wrote: (Post 9290302)
There’s nothing to suggest that WNMGB was “before the 5 year mission” other than changes in casts, sets and costumes.

And the ship miniature itself, which went through major changes -- bridge dome lowered, deflector dish replaced, nacelles substantially altered, etc. Between that and the changes in interior sets and props, it's clear that the ship underwent a major refit, probably taking months. That makes more sense between missions than during one.

bigboojeg February 25 2014 03:14 PM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
I was pleased with NuTrek and Olson's outing. He did Star Trek redshirts well.

Last Words: Yeehaw!

F. King Daniel February 25 2014 03:26 PM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
Quote:

DonIago wrote: (Post 9289600)
I agree with Nerys that there's no reason to believe we saw the entirety of the mission.

And it's not unrealistic to think a single disastrous mission could kill 20 redshirts in one go. We likely saw a very small glimpse of Enterprise's variety of missions, especially given that the show had obvious real-world limitations.

I wonder if anyone' ever attempted to keep track of redshirt deaths in the novels and comics? I remember He Who Shall Not Be Named kept a list of 430 crewman which included all the episodes and novels up until about 1998 or therabouts - but there have been a LOT of TOS tie-ins since.

Quote:

bbjeg wrote: (Post 9290380)
I was pleased with NuTrek and Olson's outing. He did Star Trek redshirts well.


Last Words: Yeehaw!

I loved the look of terror (and accompanying music sting) when Chekov was told "go put on a red shirt" in Into Darkness.

Perhaps, since Kirk hadn't yet lost a crewman at that point, one can look past the fourth wall gag and speculate that the "redshirt curse" began with another, older ship?

Warped9 February 25 2014 03:39 PM

Re: The Redshirt Myth?
 
My tally was a quick-and-dirty one and I know I missed a few, but I was also guided by the axiom if it's not onscreen or referenced onscreen then it doesn't really count. In WNMHGB we have no idea who else died besides Kelso, Mitchell and Dehner. And technically there were no redshirts, but that's playing with semantics. Somehow I doubt all of those nine who died out of sight were all Security personnel. At best maybe it could be a third and as such wouldn't affect the overall average and total much at all.


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