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-   -   How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDominion (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=237583)

t_smitts February 9 2014 05:07 AM

How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDominion
 
...War?

DS9 already showed us ship battles and surface battles. They showed us the personal and psychological cost of war. And unlike "Enterprise" would've been, DS9 wasn't hamstrung by the premise that the main characters can never SEE what the enemy looks like. (They made it work in Romulan arc, but three episodes is a bit different than, say a whole season or more).

In a way, you could argue that they'd already covered a war storyline in season 3.

So how could "Enterprise" have made this work?

milojthatch February 9 2014 08:26 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
I'd have to argue that the Romulan war would work better as a movie or mini-series just for some of the reasons you pointed out. If I only saw one story set in the primary Star Trek timeline ever again, it would be this one. I feel cheated a little that instead of a Romulan War film, we got JJ-Trek. :(

Arguably the biggest moment in Trek history not on screen.

King Daniel Into Darkness February 9 2014 11:49 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Well, technically the Romulan War (and all of Star Trek: Enterprise) is common to both timelines - things only start changing in 2233 when Nero either does or doesn't appear.

HERE is what the plan for the Romulan War was. A movie starring James T. Kirk's grandfather or great-grandfather, Tiberius Chase. Enterprise NX-01 is at Risa and misses the entire thing (which lasts a week, ignoring the old Star Trek Chronology's conjecture that it lasted 4 years). Cameos by Shran and Captain Hernandez. A tiny bit more info is HERE, detailing Romulan battle tactics.

It's a shame we didn't get to see it, but I think the movies we got instead were far superior.

Mach5 February 9 2014 03:08 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9226369)
Well, technically the Romulan War (and all of Star Trek: Enterprise) is common to both timelines - things only start changing in 2233 when Nero either does or doesn't appear.

Exactly, this is why I hated the choice they made in the romulan war books, to make the story fit with Balance of Terror. Don't get me wrong, BoT is one of my favourite TOS episodes, but it's definitely dated and makes no sense to consider everything in it hard canon.

T'Girl February 10 2014 03:40 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
As far as no communications, why would there be? You can have a ongoing story where the audience sees both side of the war, Human and Romulan, without the participants talking to each other. In the second world war the allies and the axis navies typically did chat each other up as they went into battle.

One major difference from the Dominion War could be to write the Romulans as having a legitimate reason to engage in warfare with Earth other than they're evil, or paranoid, or crazy, or seeking revenge, or a "warrior people."

:)

Mach5 February 10 2014 12:09 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 9229276)
As far as no communications, why would there be? You can have a ongoing story where the audience sees both side of the war, Human and Romulan, without the participants talking to each other. In the second world war the allies and the axis navies typically did chat each other up as they went into battle.

One major difference from the Dominion War could be to write the Romulans as having a legitimate reason to engage in warfare with Earth other than they're evil, or paranoid, or crazy, or seeking revenge, or a "warrior people."

:)

Actually, there was nothing wrong with the Romulan reasoning for going to War. They were an expansionist militaristic society, and all of a sudden, there was this new kid on the block (Coalition of Planets) which had the potential to spread through the quadrant like cancer, threatening their expansionist ambitions. It's only logical that they wanted to stop this new alliance before it grew too big and powerful.

The no communication thing was tolerable to a degree. What I find inconceivable is that in all those years of fighting, Earth's forces newer captured a single POW, or ran into a single dead Romulan soldier.

I vaguely remember a passage in which the Daedalus class bridge was described as looking intentionally "retro" or something, and this was justified by Starfleet's need to make those ships as low-tech as possible... This was obviously meant to reconcile the design discrepancies between ENT and TOS, which was silly and unnecessary, considering we already have the USS Kelvin, a post-ENT / pre-TOS Prime Universe (canon!) starship that looks awesomely futuristic and nothing on it looks like it was made in the sixties.

Come to think of it, this would, in "in-universe" terms, mean that the paradigm shift in Starfleet interior design (the "retro" trend) came AFTER 2233, but only in the Prime Universe (because the the designers responsible for it got killed by Nero :lol: ).

T'Girl February 10 2014 03:43 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Quote:

Mach5 wrote: (Post 9230377)
Quote:

Tantalizing T'Girl-boi wrote: (Post 9230377)
One major difference from the Dominion War could be to write the Romulans as having a legitimate reason to engage in warfare with Earth ...

Actually, there was nothing wrong with the Romulan reasoning for going to War. They were an expansionist militaristic society ...

I was thinking of something else, something that would resonate with the audience. I don't immediately know what it would be, but there would be a realistic cause driving both sides of the conflict. The characters in Earth forces would not have the know what the Romulan motivation was, but the audience would.

Like with the movie Insurrection, the audience wouldn't automatically all back the same faction in the drama (Earth or Romulan), within the storyline there would be a ongoing element of choice.

It wouldn't be cut and dry, it wouldn't be "easy."

Quote:

The no communication thing was tolerable to a degree. What I find inconceivable is that in all those years of fighting, Earth's forces newer captured a single POW, or ran into a single dead Romulan soldier.
Well a couple of things that come from Balance of Terror might explain those points.

One, apparently during the war Earth forces stopped dicking around with low powered photonic weapon and switch over to using nuclear weapons, so in the aftermath of a space battle there might not have been any bodies. Or what bodies were found in the wreckage were all mangled.

Two, in BoT during Spock's briefing he said: "this conflict ... allowed no quarter." No quarter is a military euphemism for take no prisoners and show no mercy. It might have been Earth policy to not even attempt to take prisoners. The Romulan may have early in the war taken advantage of a Earth force effort of rescue survivors to launch a surprise attack, resulting in Human fatalities. Resulting in Earth leadership deciding on a no prisoners policy, at least in space.

Another thought is that the only ground forces Earth encountered were Remans, or other species from within the Empire, but no actual Romulans. Shinzon (a non-Romulan) rose to the position of commander within the Romulan forces.

:)

Mach5 February 10 2014 03:51 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Hmm, "take no prisoners" is a Klingon thing, not human. But you make a good point about Remans.

t_smitts February 10 2014 08:08 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
I always assumed the "telepresence" concept was intended to offer a possible explanation of how the Romulans waged a war without anyone finding out what they look like.

They actually have Valdore say "no prisoners to capture, no bodies to recover" at one point.

I am not Spock February 11 2014 05:10 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Even Gene Roddenberry himself said that elements of TOS should be decanonised, when he was making TNG. Balance of Terror is a great episode, but it is quite silly to adhere to everything it says as gospel. A lot of it is pretty dated.

AllStarEntprise February 11 2014 09:34 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
I thought of another way to reconcile the discrepancies between BOT and ENT's Romulan War. Use the Vulcan's ties to Romulans as a justification for alleged secrecy about the events of Earth-Romulan war. T'pol knew the name Romulan in the episode "Minefield". She stated "They're rumored to be an aggressive territorial species; but the Vulcan High Command has never made direct contact with them". Well we know that's a lie from the episode "Kir'Shara". I'm willing to wager the Vulcan High Command was very much aware of who the Romulans were and were in contact with them prior to the events of ENT. Normal Vulcans like T'pol and the rest of the general population were probably in the dark about the Vulcan-Romulan connection.

I could see the Vulcan's covering up or hiding the nature of their relationship (political and genetic) they have have with the Romulans; from Earth and other Coalition planets.
If the Earth Romulan War was supposed to take place in Season 5. This would be on the heels of the Terra Prime incident, xenophobia and Xindi conflict. The populace of Earth would still be mistrusting of any union with alien species. Add in to the mix an interstellar war with the Romulan's; who are genetic cousins and outwardly similar to Vulcans (ignoring those stupid brow ridges). I doubt Starfleet or the Earth Government would be able to sell the United Coalition of Planets idea to the population of Earth. Suspicion and mistrust of aliens, especially Vulcans would increase.

I could see either the Earth Government, Starfleet and the Vulcan government (Post Kir'Shara) deciding to hide what the Romulans look like and any contact that may have been made between Earth vessels and Romulan vessels during the war. The truth would be revealed in a later date presumably when the people of Earth were more enlightened and had experienced the benefits of the United Coalition/Federation. Until an incident like TOS "BOT" or ST09 exposes the Romulans to Starfleet and civilian persons and the government has to explain and pursue information about the Romulan threat to it's populace. This could reconcile why Spock was not completely certain the Romulans were related to Vulcans in BOT. However he's aware of the relation in "The Enterprise Incident", "Unification" and ST09 (post Kelvin destruction). Also why Uhura is fluent in all 3 dialects of the Romulan language in ST09.

Staying true to canon of BOT, but bending the rules so you can have a plausible presentation of the events of the Earth-Romulan War and the aftermath.

ChristopherPike February 11 2014 10:38 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
^ What he said!

Oh, if it's a one-off TV Movie/mini-series... tell the whole thing as a kind of deathbed confession by an aged Admiral Archer. You basically know Scott Bakula's not going to die during the Romulan War, so he's the one harbouring a disgraceful secret that could ruin how history views him and rock the whole alliance if it were known.

He tours the Constitution-Class Enterprise in 2245 (or 2258 if you prefer) in his wheelchair, gives a contentious interview to somebody forever just off camera in the framing sequences. He passes away. Then have a twist involving the identity of who he spoke to. Make the reveal something that really kicks the fanbase in the nuts and we're done with filling in those ENT>TOS blanks.

T'Girl February 11 2014 12:53 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 9234085)
I could see either the Earth Government, Starfleet and the Vulcan government (Post Kir'Shara) deciding to hide what the Romulans look like ...

This would work and make sense. It could even be incorporated into a episode when the hero ship encounters a intact body and are sworn to secrecy by Starfleet Command, or they capture/rescue a living Romulan and (ominously) have him taken off their hands by government officials.

Part of the take no prisoners policy could have been to conceal the Vulcan Romulan connection.

:)

Bry_Sinclair February 12 2014 02:52 PM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
How to make the Romulan War different from the Dominion War? Don't show it.

Have ENT start with the peace treaty and show the personal hardships, struggles and losses the crew faced and how they cope with them in the aftermath. Add to that the reconstruction needed, the newly formed Federation with alien races now having to serve together for the first time ever, the drive to move away from war and conflict towards something greater.

It'd be a far more character-driven series and not so much about cool-looking ships, space battles and catsuits.

t_smitts February 13 2014 01:46 AM

Re: How could they do theRomulanWar and make it different than theDomi
 
Quote:

Bry_Sinclair wrote: (Post 9238531)
How to make the Romulan War different from the Dominion War? Don't show it.

Have ENT start with the peace treaty and show the personal hardships, struggles and losses the crew faced and how they cope with them in the aftermath. Add to that the reconstruction needed, the newly formed Federation with alien races now having to serve together for the first time ever, the drive to move away from war and conflict towards something greater.

It'd be a far more character-driven series and not so much about cool-looking ships, space battles and catsuits.

That might be a LITTLE extreme. :rolleyes: I don't think you can completely skip over Earth's last great conflict before the founding of the Federation (even though that's exactly they DID do :lol:)

I think the important theme, however, should be Archer building alliances, both in war and in peace.


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