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-   -   Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=237226)

DarthTom February 4 2014 08:44 PM

Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Piers Morgan - who I'm not crazy about is going to moderate - but this should be an interesting debate.

CNN

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(CNN)
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- Public debates on evolution and creation have become increasingly rare. Several hundred well-attended debates were held in the 1970s and 1980s, but they have largely dried up in recent decades.
So I look forward to a spirited yet cordial debate on Tuesday with Bill Nye, the "Science Guy" of television fame.
I also look forward to the opportunity to help counter the general censorship against creationists' view of origins. While we are not in favor of mandating that creation be taught in public school science classes, we believe that, at the very least, instructors should have the academic freedom to bring up the problems with evolution.
Even though the two of us are not Ph.D. scientists, Mr. Nye and I clearly love science.
As a former science instructor, I have appreciated the useful television programs that he hosted and produced, especially when he practiced operational science in front of his audience.
He and I both recognize the wonderful benefits that observational, operational science has brought us, from cell phones to space shuttles. But operational science, which builds today’s technology, is not the same as presenting beliefs about the past, which cannot be tested in the laboratory.
For students, the evolution-creation discussion can be a useful exercise, for it can help develop their critical thinking skills.

Robert Maxwell February 4 2014 08:45 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.

DarthTom February 4 2014 09:01 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207211)
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.

I don't know Robert Maxwell, while I generally agere with you when you start getting into, "intelligent design," and you throw in people's faith into the mix it becomes less black and white.

As an ex-Catholic myself, I was taught as child that God was the proverbial, "watchmaker," started the big bang and stood back and watched "his," plan unfold. So if we're talking about that type of, "creationism," it becomes IMO less of a debate over science v. religion and biblical pseudo science rather than science v. faith.

However, if we're talking about debating if Adam and Eve literally existed - than I agree 100% with you.

That said, this debate is occuring at the Creationism museum, so I'm guessing it's the latter not the former. I'm going to tune in and see how it unfolds for a few minutes tonight.

Robert Maxwell February 4 2014 09:11 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

DarthTom wrote: (Post 9207301)
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207211)
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.

I don't know Robert Maxwell, while I generally agere with you when you start getting into, "intelligent design," and you throw in people's faith into the mix it becomes less black and white.

It's less black and white and more apples and oranges. Religion and science are different domains.

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As an ex-Catholic myself, I was taught as child that God was the proverbial, "watchmaker," started the big bang and stood back and watched "his," plan unfold. So if we're talking about that type of, "creationism," it becomes IMO less of a debate over science v. religion rather than science v. faith.
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.

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However, if we're talking about debating if Adam and Eve literally existed - than I agree 100% with you.

That said, this debate is occuring at the Creationism museum, so I'm guessing it's the latter not the former. I'm going to tune in and see how it unfolds for a few minutes tonight.
Now there's a place I wouldn't mind seeing burn to the ground (with no one inside, of course.) Just one big shrine to anti-intellectualism and ignorance.

DarthTom February 4 2014 09:24 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207334)
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.

For Catholics at least - and since science cannot yet identify what 'force,' caused the big bang - their faith that God did is sufficient. Do you find the explanation objectionable?

Hound of UIster February 4 2014 09:27 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207211)
This is an awful idea. Putting a Creationist on the same stage as a legitimate scientist only makes Creationism look more credible. It gives the impression there's a "debate" with "two sides" who have valid points, when in reality it's facts against bullshit.

Creationists should be shunned, ridiculed, and shamed into silence, not engaged in debate.

Agreed. Even acknowledging these people is a mistake and gives them credibility.

Robert Maxwell February 4 2014 09:30 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
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DarthTom wrote: (Post 9207391)
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Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207334)
I don't think science and faith are necessarily incompatible, but there's also no reason they have to overlap. If religion has to creep in and tell science it's wrong, well, religion's overstepping.

For Catholics at least - and since science cannot yet identify what 'force,' caused the big bang - their faith that God did is sufficient. Do you find the explanation objectionable?

I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."

DarthTom February 4 2014 09:36 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207439)
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."

I generally agree. However, and to paraphrase the movie Contact, for people to dismiss more than 1/2 of the earth's population belief in a deity as some sort of delusional behavior is insulting.

I'll give them the fig leaf of the big bang being started by god if they accept the science of evolution and natural selection as a reasonable compromise.

Atheists get it wrong IMO when they because as dogmatic as some conservative religious people do with their beliefs or lack there of.

MacLeod February 4 2014 09:41 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
There is nothing wrong with teaching creationism per se, people are free to believe what they want, not that I believe it in myself. That being said creationism, Intelligent Design etc.. only belong in religious classes. They should not be taught in science class along with evolution.

DarthTom February 4 2014 09:46 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

MacLeod wrote: (Post 9207499)
There is nothing wrong with teaching creationism per se, people are free to believe what they want, not that I believe it in myself. That being said creationism, Intelligent Design etc.. only belong in religious classes. They should not be taught in science class along with evolution.

Children - especially young children - sometimes have trouble differentiating the difference.

The bible should not be taught IMO as a science book under any circumstances. As a Catholic for example I was taught as a child that virtually all of the old testament was apocryphal

Robert Maxwell February 4 2014 09:46 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

DarthTom wrote: (Post 9207478)
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207439)
I find it irrelevant. No deity or supernatural force of any kind is a requirement for the Big Bang to "work."

I generally agree. However, and to paraphrase the movie Contact, for people to dismiss more than 1/2 of the earth's population belief in a deity as some sort of delusional behavior is insulting.

All I can say to that is "tough shit." Science is about facts, not feelings.

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I'll give them the fig leaf of the big bang being started by god if they accept the science of evolution and natural selection as a reasonable compromise.
This is not a tit-for-tat. Science doesn't have to acknowledge unscientific assertions just to placate people. Evolution is true whether people "accept" it or not.

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Atheists get it wrong IMO when they because as dogmatic as some conservative religious people do with their beliefs or lack there of.
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.

DarthTom February 4 2014 09:56 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207532)
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)

I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession. edited to add. And when I use the word, "concession," I mean it in a way that politely acknowledges that you respect their faith and so long as god doesn't break scientific law by starting the big bang you're fine with that even thought that may not be your personal belief system.

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Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.

Robert Maxwell February 4 2014 10:04 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

DarthTom wrote: (Post 9207607)
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207532)
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)

I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession.

If science can't prove or disprove the existence of deities--and short of one actually announcing itself, I would agree--why does religion give a damn? Science is never going to say "sure, the Big Bang was caused by God," because it's not a scientific statement. What are you asking for, for that to be put in science books or something?

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Quote:

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.
If one's religion doesn't require a rejection of science, more power to it. Science really has no reason to care, though.

Timelord Victorious February 4 2014 10:05 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

DarthTom wrote: (Post 9207607)
Quote:

Robert Maxwell wrote: (Post 9207532)
I find your attitude bizarre. Science isn't "dogmatic," it's a process through which we refine our understanding of the universe. It's not perfect. It probably never will be. But it provides testable, provable information about the world around us. Religion is about offering hope and solace (at best) or enforcing social order (at worst.)

I wasn't talking about science being dogmatic but rather some atheists when it comes to pushing their anti-god agenda with science.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of god so - giving people their belief that god started the big bang IMO is a harmless concession.

Quote:

Certain religious groups are intent on demeaning and attacking science because they believe it threatens their doctrine. It's been the same old story for centuries, and science always wins out in the end, because science is about finding the truth, not hiding truths we may find uncomfortable or strange.
I agree with you - science is science and faith is faith but letting some people have both but yet still adhere to proven scientific principles is a reasonable way to compromise on the issue of creationism, "intelligent design," and the big bang and god as the watchmaker.

It is ok to believe a god started the Big Bang and science can't disprove the untestable.
Until science finds out what started the Big Bang. Then which gaps fill the theists next with their god?
This has happened over and over throughout history. And always they have said, but scientists will never explain X, only god could have done that. And then science explained X. And theists burned the scientists with fire (maybe sometimes literally)literally) until they had to change their position because the world threatened to move on without them.
It will happen again...

DarthTom February 4 2014 10:53 PM

Re: Bill Nye to debate Creationist tonight at 7 - 2.4 on CNN
 
Quote:

Timelord_Victorious wrote: (Post 9207667)
It is ok to believe a god started the Big Bang and science can't disprove the untestable.
Until science finds out what started the Big Bang. Then which gaps fill the theists next with their god?
This has happened over and over throughout history. And always they have said, but scientists will never explain X, only god could have done that. And then science explained X. And theists burned the scientists with fire (maybe sometimes literally)literally) until they had to change their position because the world threatened to move on without them.
It will happen again...

That debate would become an endless loop. Hypothetically science finds out what triggered the big bang and the faithful will simply claim that god created that trigger. And so on ad nausea.

I say give them this so long as their beliefs don't contradict estabished and proven science.


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