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-   -   Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws. (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=234793)

Viva Sativa January 6 2014 12:50 AM

Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
I watched the series despite its plethora of issues because I love Star Trek. Am I the only one that tolerated captain Archer and his shipmates? Am I the only one who feels that Star Trek Enterprise was just another chance for Hollywood to revamp the series with new special effects and makeup without stressing whether the plot would correlate with the previous series.

Hober Mallow January 6 2014 01:03 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

Viva Sativa wrote: (Post 9089284)
I watched the series despite its plethora of issues because I love Star Trek. Am I the only one that tolerated captain Archer and his shipmates? Am I the only one who feels that Star Trek Enterprise was just another chance for Hollywood to revamp the series with new special effects and makeup without stressing whether the plot would correlate with the previous series.

I love Trek also, and I never cared about the ENT continuity issues... but I still didn't like the show.

King Daniel Into Darkness January 6 2014 01:14 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Watch the Youtube videos in my signature. Enterprise certainly hasn't got the monopoly on continuity errors. The entire Trek saga is packed with HUGE universe-breakers (like the difference in warp speeds between TOS and Voyager)

IMO, if the errors (most of which were deliberate changes) ruin it for you, you're watching Trek wrong. Because you're not gonna have any fun!

theenglish January 6 2014 01:48 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Thanks for pointing out the videos!

Christopher January 6 2014 01:51 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
All Trek has continuity problems, as King Daniel points out. Enterprise's are no worse than those of any prior series or movie. It's just that it covers a period that we had decades to build up assumptions and expectations about. Most of the things that people saw as "continuity errors" in ENT were really contradictions of their preconceptions and beliefs about the 22nd century, rather than any actual canonical information.

Really, it would've been a total waste if all ENT had done was confirm our existing assumptions about the era. That would've been boring and pointless. It's good to be surprised.

Hober Mallow January 6 2014 01:55 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9089389)
Watch the Youtube videos in my signature.

I like the turbo-lift stuff.

USS Triumphant January 6 2014 02:07 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
I don't have any serious problems with Enterprise, but it's because I assume the series is the result of changes starting with Cochrane, Sloan, and the Vulcans in ST:FC (or perhaps even earlier from some part of the Temporal Cold War) and leading to NuTrek, not to the Prime. In the Prime, I assume that Archer and company and their ship were somewhat different (and more in line with TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY).

Viva Sativa January 6 2014 03:41 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9089389)
Watch the Youtube videos in my signature. Enterprise certainly hasn't got the monopoly on continuity errors. The entire Trek saga is packed with HUGE universe-breakers (like the difference in warp speeds between TOS and Voyager)

IMO, if the errors (most of which were deliberate changes) ruin it for you, you're watching Trek wrong. Because you're not gonna have any fun!

As far as warp factors go there is no controversy. In "Journey to Babel" that Orion ship was going warp 10. It was speculated that other than life support, since they would not be returning home they could attain such velocity by using all energy reserves. 24th century warp theory said that warp 10 is infinite velocity because the rapid folding of space would give the ship an inertia at such a high magnitude that there wouldn't be enough stopping power to exit warp 10. That theory was broken several times in TOS, TNG and VOY. The theory however had not been theorized yet during TOS. Theories are plausible and when outside intelligence is involved it's all possible because their technological advances were not documented by the federation e.g. The Kelvans, kalandans, and NOMAD. That's just in TOS canon. TNG had the traveler and Voyager had the Nacene among others. It's the unknown clause/ loophole and that is not comparable to ENT's continuity flaws.

I suggest you read Star Trek: Memory Prime(No.42). There is a point where Scotty is giving a tour of the engine room to Nobel and Zee-Magnees prize nominees. Someone argues that science may one day create trilythium and he counters by pointing out that they still haven't created DiSodium. Then gives a thorough lecture on accelerator fields and warp factors. Give it a read and correct thine error.

Nerys Myk January 6 2014 03:42 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 9089686)
I don't have any serious problems with Enterprise, but it's because I assume the series is the result of changes starting with Cochrane, Sloan, and the Vulcans in ST:FC (or perhaps even earlier from some part of the Temporal Cold War) and leading to NuTrek, not to the Prime. In the Prime, I assume that Archer and company and their ship were somewhat different (and more in line with TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY).

That would seem to be contradicted by In A Mirror Darkly and These Are the Voyages.

Viva Sativa January 6 2014 04:01 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9090058)
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 9089686)
I don't have any serious problems with Enterprise, but it's because I assume the series is the result of changes starting with Cochrane, Sloan, and the Vulcans in ST:FC (or perhaps even earlier from some part of the Temporal Cold War) and leading to NuTrek, not to the Prime. In the Prime, I assume that Archer and company and their ship were somewhat different (and more in line with TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY).

That would seem to be contradicted by In A Mirror Darkly and These Are the Voyages.

Thank you.

USS Triumphant January 6 2014 04:11 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9090058)
That would seem to be contradicted by In A Mirror Darkly and These Are the Voyages.

In A Mirror Darkly isn't necessarily inconsistent, because there's nothing saying that the U.S.S. Defiant from the Prime Timeline wasn't shunted to the past of the NuMirror Universe.

(This also presumes, which I do, that the Nu Timeline has it's own NuMirror Universe that is approximately the same "distance" across the quantum realities from the Nu Universe as the original Mirror Universe was from the Prime Universe.)

As to These Are The Voyages, that episode isn't part of my personal canon (as someone else cleverly put it here recently, Deanna Troi's holodeck fanfic isn't canon :D ), and Berman and Braga can eat a big bag of {censored}. ;)

Christopher January 6 2014 04:27 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
The intent was always that ENT would lead into the Trek universe we knew. But since it's fiction, it reinterpreted a few things, just like TOS itself was constantly reinterpreting and revising its ideas as it gradually built the universe (Spock was originally a Vulcanian, the Enterprise was originally an Earth ship, Kirk originally had little interest in women, etc.). Every canon rewrites itself over time.

Nerys Myk January 6 2014 04:37 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 9090136)
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9090058)
That would seem to be contradicted by In A Mirror Darkly and These Are the Voyages.

In A Mirror Darkly isn't necessarily inconsistent, because there's nothing saying that the U.S.S. Defiant from the Prime Timeline wasn't shunted to the past of the NuMirror Universe.

(This also presumes, which I do, that the Nu Timeline has it's own NuMirror Universe that is approximately the same "distance" across the quantum realities from the Nu Universe as the original Mirror Universe was from the Prime Universe.)

As to These Are The Voyages, that episode isn't part of my personal canon (as someone else cleverly put it here recently, Deanna Troi's holodeck fanfic isn't canon :D ), and Berman and Braga can eat a big bag of {censored}. ;)

The Defiant has data in its memory banks that indicates Enterprise, as we've seen it, is part of the history of the Prime Universe.

I'm no fan of TATV either. ( Worst. Episode. Evah.) If I was inclined to have a "personal canon", Enterprise would end with "Terra Prime", but creator intent trumps personal canon, so I have to accept TATV as canonical.

Christopher January 6 2014 05:07 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 9090232)
I'm no fan of TATV either. ( Worst. Episode. Evah.) If I was inclined to have a "personal canon", Enterprise would end with "Terra Prime", but creator intent trumps personal canon, so I have to accept TATV as canonical.

But canons often disregard individual parts of themselves. "The Alternative Factor" treated antimatter and dilithium in a way that contradicted what prior episodes had established, and it was ignored by all subsequent episodes. The Final Frontier's quick jaunt to the center of the galaxy was ignored by TNG, DS9, and VGR, which all assumed it would take decades to cover such distances via warp drive. "Threshold" was explicitly renounced and decanonized by its own writer.

Canon is fiction, not fact. It's the pretense of a consistent reality, but since it's still a story being told, it's flexible. It can make mistakes and it can correct or ignore those mistakes later on.

So canon does not require you to accept every last episode, every last line, as indisputable fact. No canon does that with itself, so there's no reason why we should have to. A canon is a story that people are telling you, and it's a story you tell yourself. On both levels, there is choice involved. You choose, just as they do, how to fit the disparate and conflicting details into an overall narrative, and sometimes that means just ignoring some of the details. And that is creator intent, because it's the intent of just about any creator to keep tweaking and refining a creation as long as possible.

Dukhat January 6 2014 08:50 AM

Re: Watching ENT despite the continuity flaws.
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 9089542)
All Trek has continuity problems, as King Daniel points out. Enterprise's are no worse than those of any prior series or movie. It's just that it covers a period that we had decades to build up assumptions and expectations about. Most of the things that people saw as "continuity errors" in ENT were really contradictions of their preconceptions and beliefs about the 22nd century, rather than any actual canonical information.

Really, it would've been a total waste if all ENT had done was confirm our existing assumptions about the era. That would've been boring and pointless. It's good to be surprised.

But that was the problem. ENT, stylistically, structurally, and writing-wise, really wasn't all that different from Voyager which came before it.

I have no problems with changing preconceptions, but for the first two years the show was simply about a crew on a ship visiting planets/aliens-of-the-week. They even had a Seven-of-Nine clone. Every script for the first two seasons could have easily been written for Voyager.

It wasn't that my preconceptions of the 22nd century had changed, it was that I was basically being shown that Star Trek's past wasn't all that different from Star Trek's future. Stylistically and structurally, Forbidden Planet was a better Star Trek prequel than ENT was.


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