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Xzpezer January 5 2014 07:02 PM

terran empire
 
Does anyone know How the Terran empire was crated we saw in a mirror darkly that first contact was different instead of Zefram Cochran tacking the Vulcan's in friendship instead he killed them.i think what he did was when he killed the Vulcan's he then stole there ship and used its technology to take over the world.And create the Terran Empire.Does anyone else think differently how the empire was created.

USS Triumphant January 5 2014 07:07 PM

Re: terran empire
 
I doubt it was that straight forward. Something had to already be different for Cochrane to make that decision rather than the one he made in the history of the Prime and Nu universes. One of the novels suggested that there were differences going all the way back to that universe's version of Shakespeare, and one of the Prime characters was afraid to even pick up a Bible to look, there. Another novel - one of Shatner's - suggested that the difference was whether or not Cochrane chose to tell the Vulcans about the Borg. Both novels have been contradicted since their release by screen canon, though. So it is still an open question. Also open to question is whether there was a point of divergence *at all*, or was the Mirror Universe simply a parallel development from the very beginning (which I guess would make the beginning the point of divergence, but that seems like splitting hairs).

Xzpezer January 5 2014 07:11 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 9087895)
I doubt it was that straight forward. Something had to already be different for Cochrane to make that decision rather than the one he made in the history of the Prime and Nu universes. One of the novels suggested that there were differences going all the way back to that universe's version of Shakespeare, and one of the Prime characters was afraid to even pick up a Bible to look, there. Another novel - one of Shatner's - suggested that the difference was whether or not Cochrane chose to tell the Vulcans about the Borg. Both novels have been contradicted since their release by screen canon, though. So it is still an open question. Also open to question is whether there was a point of divergence *at all*, or was the Mirror Universe simply a parallel development from the very beginning (which I guess would make the beginning the point of divergence, but that seems like splitting hairs).

How do you think the Empire was created and what made Cochran kill the Vulcan's

USS Triumphant January 5 2014 07:33 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

Xzpezer wrote: (Post 9087898)
How do you think the Empire was created and what made Cochran kill the Vulcan's

Possibly something as small as the Mirror Universe's U.S. Constitutional Convention deciding that they wanted to call their head of state "king" rather than "president". No change in powers, just the difference in title, might have been enough over the course of time.

But who knows? The only thing obvious is that it had to be something fairly fundamental, yet minor enough that it didn't cause such sweeping changes that any of the main characters from TOS were never born or were born with different names or even for there to be a dramatic difference in ship design.

As an aside, I tend to think that Cochrane and Sloan knowing about the Borg and telling the Vulcans is the point of divergence between the Prime and Nu universes - but I've gotten in quite a few disagreements about that on the board. :D

Xzpezer January 5 2014 07:38 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 9088045)
Quote:

Xzpezer wrote: (Post 9087898)
How do you think the Empire was created and what made Cochran kill the Vulcan's

Possibly something as small as the Mirror Universe's U.S. Constitutional Convention deciding that they wanted to call their head of state "king" rather than "president". No change in powers, just the difference in title, might have been enough over the course of time.

But who knows? The only thing obvious is that it had to be something fairly fundamental, yet minor enough that it didn't cause such sweeping changes that any of the main characters from TOS were never born or were born with different names or even for there to be a dramatic difference in ship design.

As an aside, I tend to think that Cochrane and Sloan knowing about the Borg and telling the Vulcans is the point of divergence between the Prime and Nu universes - but I've gotten in quite a few disagreements about that on the board. :D

Maybe the Terran empire already existed for hundreds of years and when he killed the Vulcan's he used there ship to take over the world and expand it into space i found this fan crated timeline on the mirror universe here is the link to it reed it and see what you think of it reply back tome once you read it.http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...eHeTkm0xyRG7iw

George Steinbrenner January 5 2014 07:59 PM

Re: terran empire
 
It's revealed in "In a Mirror, Darkly" that the differences between universes go back to at least Shakespeare's time. So therefore, ST:FC can't be the point of divergence, if indeed there ever was one (i.e. assuming there used to be one universe which split into two, as opposed to the two universes always existing in parallel to each other).

The Wormhole January 5 2014 08:41 PM

Re: terran empire
 
According to Enterprise the Terran Empire had already existed "for centuries" and indeed the opening credits show the flag of the Terran Empire being planted on the moon, implying the Empire existed at least as far back as the 1960s. According to Mirror Phlox, Prime Universe literature is "soft and weak" compared to Mirror literature, although Shakespeare is apparently the same in both universes. Hell, the graphic of the globe seen in Enterprise's opening credits depicts it rotating in the opposite direction. Might this be an accurate representation perhaps implying on MU Earth the sun rises in the west? And having the sun rising in an opposite direction has resulted in humanity becoming evil.

FormerLurker January 5 2014 08:42 PM

Re: terran empire
 
I don't remember anything suggesting that the difference dates back to the reign of Queen Elizabeth I (the monarch during Shakespeare's early life) being depicted in "In a Mirror, Darkly" at all. To be honest, the episode makes it appear that Cochrane himself is the divergent element, reacting to the arrival of the Vulcans with violence instead of and open hand of welcome, and only reacted with welcome because of the Enterprise crew.

My personal theory is that Khan won the Eugenics War, and was eventually deposed, but by then society had been changed to where aggression and self-aggrandizement were praised and supported. By Cochrane's time, little had changed in appearance, but attitudes were such that Cochrane killed the Vulcans instead of welcoming them.

Xzpezer January 5 2014 08:44 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 9088333)
According to Enterprise the Terran Empire had already existed "for centuries" and indeed the opening credits show the flag of the Terran Empire being planted on the moon, implying the Empire existed at least as far back as the 1960s. According to Mirror Phlox, Prime Universe literature is "soft and weak" compared to Mirror literature, although Shakespeare is apparently the same in both universes. Hell, the graphic of the globe seen in Enterprise's opening credits depicts it rotating in the opposite direction. Might this be an accurate representation perhaps implying on MU Earth the sun rises in the west? And having the sun rising in an opposite direction has resulted in humanity becoming evil.

And for some reason because of different events in the mirror universe Cochran killed the Vulcan's and stole there ship and used it to take over the world.why do you think he killed them

USS Triumphant January 5 2014 09:43 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 9088333)
Hell, the graphic of the globe seen in Enterprise's opening credits depicts it rotating in the opposite direction. Might this be an accurate representation perhaps implying on MU Earth the sun rises in the west? And having the sun rising in an opposite direction has resulted in humanity becoming evil.

Good eye for detail! I had not noticed that.

BigSnake January 6 2014 12:01 AM

Re: terran empire
 
It's my impression that the Mirror Universe is not an alternate history, but simply a "reversed" universe. In which case it wouldn't have a single point of divergence.

Shawnster January 6 2014 02:49 AM

Re: terran empire
 
Quote:

FormerLurker wrote: (Post 9088336)
I don't remember anything suggesting that the difference dates back to the reign of Queen Elizabeth I (the monarch during Shakespeare's early life) being depicted in "In a Mirror, Darkly" at all.

Here's what I found from the transcript.

Quote:

[Recreation room]
(Complete with 3D chess set)
T'POL: What's Major Reed's condition?
PHLOX: At this point, he could go either way. No doubt there'll be several discreet celebrations if he should expire.
T'POL: I notice you've been making extensive use of the library database.
PHLOX: I was merely researching classical literature. I wanted to compare our major works with their counterparts in the other universe. I skimmed a few of the more celebrated narratives. The stories were similar in some respects, but their characters were weak and compassionate. With the exception of Shakespeare, of course. From what I could tell, his plays were equally grim in both universes.
T'POL: Examine their historical files. You may want to learn more about their Federation. Did you know in the other universe, humans and Denobulans are considered equals? As are Vulcans. You don't find this interesting.
PHLOX: I find it dangerous. If I were the Captain, I'd restrict access to that database. I'm certain he wouldn't want to give his crew any ideas.
T'POL: Perhaps you should reconsider the repercussions
(Alarm sounds)
ARCHER [OC]: This is the Captain. All hands to battle stations.

FormerLurker January 6 2014 08:24 AM

Re: terran empire
 
That line of dialog is no guarantee he was comparing authors contemporaneous with Shakespeare. For all we know, he could have been talking about the collected works of Harold Robbins and Jacqueline Susann. Call it what you will, to me it's too vague a reference to be considered definitive.

Richard Baker January 6 2014 06:53 PM

Re: terran empire
 
IIRC in the opening credits of 'In the Mirror Darkly' they show the history of the Terran Empire complete with an 'Evil' Enterprise sailing ship firing it's cannons. I think the point is that there is not a single point of divergence but a parallel development where given a choice a man would choose the darker, more aggressive option. History would have similar events but different outcomes.

TheSubCommander January 6 2014 10:22 PM

Re: terran empire
 
Yeah, the Mirror Universe is just that a DIFFERENT universe, not to be confused with a different\multiple timelines within the same universe.


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