The Trek BBS

The Trek BBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/index.php)
-   General Trek Discussion (http://www.trekbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   Was/is Andoria ever a major space power? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=234553)

Xerxes1979 January 3 2014 08:47 PM

Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
As a co-equal founder of Federation we see surprisingly few Andorians in Star Trek. I know Roddenberry wanted to get away from TOS during TNG, but that doesn't explain why we see so many Vulcans around.

Vulcan seemed to have given up independent space operations early on but they are very well represented in the various ranks and departments of Star Fleet.

Was an Andorian space fleet still maintained? We somewhat suspect that their space is near Vulcan and would be away from the Dominion War, yet Romulus should not be close to Cardassia and they were full combatants.

Am I to assume that the generic twin nacelle ship design become the Federation standard sometime in the early 23rd century?

Darkwing January 3 2014 10:48 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Yes, Andor maintained the "Blue Fleet". They were a major power before the UFP, at least equal to Vulcan, Tellar, and Terra.
The generic nacelle based warp drive became the standard in the late 22nd century, in the earlier versions of Trek. Then Roddenberry had his spat with Franz Joseph where he found out he didn't own Joseph's work, and he nullified all odd-number nacelle designs by fiat. So if you go by canon, then yes, twin-nacelles no later than early 23rd century, except for the Romulan Bird of Prey scout that later got relabeled Klingon - it has an internal warp drive. But that's also not a UFP ship.

JirinPanthosa January 3 2014 11:01 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Let's also not forget they are a makeup-intensive race. Andorians are referenced much more often than they appear. Because a Vulcan in the background takes less effort than an Andorian in the background.

They were a powerful planet but there's no indication they ever controlled another world than their own.

Sran January 3 2014 11:08 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
The Andorians were a significant player during Enterprise and made several appearances throughout the series. And as one of the founding members of the Federation, they were a significant Alpha Quadrant race during the twenty second century. It's not clear if they claimed other planets as their own, but the Andorian Imperial Guard had frequent skirmishes with both the Vulcans and United Earth before Archer and Commander Shran were able to develop a rapport.

--Sran

Anwar January 4 2014 12:23 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
The reason we only saw the Andorians just once in the TNG era was because make-up tech at the time couldn't make them look good. It was only by ENT that they had good looking make-up tech to make them look good.

Therin of Andor January 4 2014 10:20 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 9081796)
The reason we only saw the Andorians just once in the TNG era

Twice. "The Offspring" and "Captain's Holiday" - same wig, same antennae and probably the same actress (according to the wardrobe labels).

Quote:

JirinPanthosa wrote: (Post 9081547)
They were a powerful planet but there's no indication they ever controlled another world than their own.

"Star Trek Maps" mentions Andorians on colony worlds.

According to "Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology" (Pocket, 1980) by Stan and Fred Goldstein, the Andorians created havoc at the first Babel Conference, which had been called to incorporate the United Federation of Planets. It seems they claimed "sovereignty over all stars visible to the eye from Andor."

King Daniel Into Darkness January 4 2014 12:03 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
The Andorians were a big deal pre-Federation, where they were in a long war with the Vulcans. It was Archer helping to bring it to a close that allowed the Federation to come together in the first place.

They play a large role in the post-Nemesis novels, where they've been battling a population crisis.

Quote:

Am I to assume that the generic twin nacelle ship design become the Federation standard sometime in the early 23rd century?
Before that, according to Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures. While Andorian ships had more efficient weapons than Earth ships, the human designs were far more adaptable and flexible than either theirs or the Vulcan's - hence UFP vessels being patterned after the NX-01. The book does mention the next generation of ships borrowing the duel forward helm/nav stations seen on Andorian ships in Enterprise (and also going from Enterprise, it would seem that the movie-era Enterprise refit uses a Vulcan computer OS)

Ethros January 4 2014 05:54 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 9081796)
The reason we only saw the Andorians just once in the TNG era was because make-up tech at the time couldn't make them look good. It was only by ENT that they had good looking make-up tech to make them look good.

I find it hard to beleive that the make up used in 2001 for ENT was so much more advanced than used in say DS9 1993-1999, as for why we never saw an Andorian there. Especially when there were always plenty of Bolians, Pakleds, Ferengi etc etc in the Promenade backgrounds for example which are all pretty makeup heavy. My guess is they just thought the Andorians looked a bit "silly"
It was a big shame though that no Andorians appeared in Nemesis (post their ENT appearance.) A random Andorian officer on the bridge or Engineering would have been cool.

Anwar January 4 2014 09:46 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
The Bolians, Pakleds and Ferengi don't have movable parts of the face make-up. The Andorians do have their moving antennae, which until ENT they didn't have the tech to do in a good looking way (like how Shran's are moving) and when they did, they probably figured the Andorians would be cool looking for a show now.

Dale Sams January 4 2014 09:52 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Just another hard-headed, angry alien race. At least in ENT.

Maurice January 5 2014 05:28 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Quote:

Ethros wrote: (Post 9083929)
Quote:

Anwar wrote: (Post 9081796)
The reason we only saw the Andorians just once in the TNG era was because make-up tech at the time couldn't make them look good. It was only by ENT that they had good looking make-up tech to make them look good.

I find it hard to beleive that the make up used in 2001 for ENT was so much more advanced than used in say DS9 1993-1999, as for why we never saw an Andorian there. Especially when there were always plenty of Bolians, Pakleds, Ferengi etc etc in the Promenade backgrounds for example which are all pretty makeup heavy. My guess is they just thought the Andorians looked a bit "silly"
It was a big shame though that no Andorians appeared in Nemesis (post their ENT appearance.) A random Andorian officer on the bridge or Engineering would have been cool.

You're correct. I'm tired of people incorrectly blaming the state of the art at the time for things which had other causes. I got a memo from Eric Stillwell on TNG which advised against Andorians because "one of our producers doesn't like aliens with antennae."

Therin of Andor January 5 2014 05:45 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Quote:

Ethros wrote: (Post 9083929)
I find it hard to beleive that the make up used in 2001 for ENT was so much more advanced than used in say DS9 1993-1999, as for why we never saw an Andorian there.

Huh?

The essential miniaturization of the parts required to make the Andorian antennae move, yet be light enough to sit on the actors' heads all day, had only just been achieved before ENT started production. State of the art for 2001.

Prior to that, the quality of latex appliance work to make antennae emerge from a baldcap had only just been perfected before the Andorian was featured in ST IV. State of the art for 1985.

Prior to that, the new slip rubber required to make the antanne featured in ST:TMP (and all the other TMP aliens) had only just been developed. State of the art for 1978.

Prior to that, Andorian antennae were made from the ends of wooden cotton reels from the bin in Wardrobe at Paramount. State of the art for 1960s.

As for 24th century Andorians not appearing in early TNG, former The Next Generation staffer Tracy Tormé once revealed at a New Zealand convention that his original proposal for the episode Conspiracy included an Andorian Starfleet officer as the host of the alien parasites. The lines of dialogue were eventually given to Dexter Remmick, and the blue skin given to Captain Rixx the Bolian, when the producers (ie. Rick Berman) told Tormé: "We don't do antennae on this show."

Quote:

Maurice wrote: (Post 9085963)
I'm tired of people incorrectly blaming the state of the art at the time for things which had other causes. I got a memo from Eric Stillwell on TNG which advised against Andorians because "one of our producers doesn't like aliens with antennae."

It was both. For TNG, yes, it was Berman who thought Andorians' antennae to me "hokey", like something from a B-grade sci-fi movie. Ironically, the wig and antennae used in "The Offspring" and "Captain's Holiday" looked the hokiest!

I interviewed Fred Phillips in 1984, and he confirmed that TMP Andorians were only included because they were his "favorites", and the new latex permitted thinner tendril-like antennae for the first time, to make them look more "believable".

There have been numerous articles about the changes in latex makeup technology for ST IV's bald Andorian, and the miniaturization of the parts needed for ENT's antennae having only just been achieved.

As for "Nemesis":

Although a promising quote from John Logan, screenwriter of Star Trek Nemesis, went: "We are going to see some of the original series aliens that we haven't seen for a while. I can't go into detail, but I love the Andorians..." [Star Trek Communicator #132], none survived the final draft or cut. According to Picard in an early draft, Riker's bachelor party was attended by "three Andorians, two Tellarites and a Gorn". The Orion, a Federation delegate ship, was to have been captained by an elderly Andorian named Meelok, who taught Picard at the Academy.

The final scene of the shooting script included a new female Andorian Ops officer (but not in the version filmed).

And DS9 did have an Andorian, but you had to search hard!:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2766/4...e10b8885_m.jpg
DS9's Andorian criminal by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

Above: An Andorian criminal was often displayed on a "Wanted poster" in Constable Odo's security office aboard Deep Space 9. [Vortex; If Wishes Were Horses; The Forsaken; Dramatis Personae; Duet; In the Hands of the Prophets.]

Maurice January 7 2014 06:48 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
I still don't buy that makeup technology had anything to do with the lack of Andorians on any Star Trek between TOS and Enterprise, especially since said antennae were originally shown poking up through hair and easily done with makeup tech going back to the silent era. I suspect that antennae were just considered old fashioned men from Mars stuff by people later. Persoonally, I'll take antennae over idiotic forehead bumps any day. Bring on the Andorians! :)

Therin of Andor January 7 2014 07:24 AM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Quote:

Maurice wrote: (Post 9094069)
I suspect that antennae were just considered old fashioned men from Mars stuff by people later.

No one is disputing that bit. Rick Berman's quotes about TOS Andorians looking "hokey" are on record. It also has to do with Roddenberry, Gerrold and Fontana's decision, before "Encounter at Farpoint" was filmed, that the new show should avoid previous Federation aliens, although Gene was encouraged to add a Vulcan extra, and then a Klingon officer, who was eventually fleshed out by the second year's Writers' Bible. So no Andorian, no Tellarites, no TMP aliens. And the original premise in "Farpoint" was that the ship was leaving known space for at least a decade. Hence Q making them turn back.

But there was also the miniaturization of the moving parts for ENT's Andorians. It was said that Berman was only really convinced Andorians were a good idea if the antennae could move, and be more believable, and the parts were always too heavy to do that until ENT's first season.

Dale Sams January 7 2014 10:23 PM

Re: Was/is Andoria ever a major space power?
 
Worf wasn't Roddenberry's idea? hunh.

He seems completely a logical extension of the events of "Errand of Mercy"


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.