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-   -   First contact borg inconsistency? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=234277)

Hawkeye_90 December 31 2013 08:15 AM

First contact borg inconsistency?
 
In TNG the enterprise weapons and torpedos did nothing to the borg and the borg were able to adapt right away to the star fleet weapons, or so my memory tells me, but yet in first contact the star fleet weapons just tear the cube to pieces how?

AgentCoop December 31 2013 11:40 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Well, first of all, by the time we get to FC Starfleet has had several years to develop new weapons and tactics for use against the Borg. They've known since The Best Of Both Worlds that it was just a matter of time before the Borg attempted another invasion.

Even so, however, the Starfleet weapons don't seem to be making much of a dent in the cube until the Enterprise-E shows up. It's not until Picard takes over the fleet and orders everyone to concentrate fire on what he knows to be a weak point that the cube starts taking heavy damage.

F. King Daniel December 31 2013 11:44 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

Hawkeye_90 wrote: (Post 9069019)
In TNG the enterprise weapons and torpedos did nothing to the borg and the borg were able to adapt right away to the star fleet weapons, or so my memory tells me, but yet in first contact the star fleet weapons just tear the cube to pieces how?

Upgrades to Starfleet technology in the years inbetween. The first time the Borg and the Enterprise fought in "Q Who", the Enterprise did massive damage and it took quite awhile for the Borg to adapt and repair.

BillJ December 31 2013 02:32 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

AgentDreidel wrote: (Post 9069310)
It's not until Picard takes over the fleet and orders everyone to concentrate fire on what he knows to be a weak point that the cube starts taking heavy damage.

Seems like Picard would've pointed out that weakness during some tactical briefing during the years between the two Borg invasions?

Count December 31 2013 03:04 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
already explained in Best of Both Worlds, Shelby and La Forge were discussing anti-borg tech and Shelby projected 24 months before they'd be ready, that was 8 years before First Contact.

Voyager was able to pull plenty of random crap out of their asses to save the ship and the day (the plot reactors didn't work all the time, remember), and add to that, Starfleet had a lot more info on the borg after the BOBW battle, whereas they only had the original Q-Who encounter the first time.

Easily stands to reason that some of the theoretical anti-borg tech that Shelby's team worked on was brought online and at least partially successful during the battle, which would explain the damage.

As for the comments on "weaknesses", there aren't _meant_ to be any, that's why they're cube shaped. If memory serves, the draft of the script explained the vulnerability that Picard targeted as a ship having crashed/rammed into that area breaking the outer and inner hulls (Maybe it was supposed to be the Defiant before Behr complained, I don't know). So in FC, I argue that the weakness they aimed for was just a hull breach caused in the battle that Picard listened in on to find out was easily exploitable.

BillJ December 31 2013 04:06 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

Count wrote: (Post 9069661)
So in FC, I argue that the weakness they aimed for was just a hull breach caused in the battle that Picard listened in on to find out was easily exploitable.

I still don't know how Picard is suppose to be able to "listen in" on the Borg when Crusher supposedly removed the implants? Seems like the Borg would've known Picard's strategy as well?

sonak December 31 2013 05:11 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 9069841)
Quote:

Count wrote: (Post 9069661)
So in FC, I argue that the weakness they aimed for was just a hull breach caused in the battle that Picard listened in on to find out was easily exploitable.

I still don't know how Picard is suppose to be able to "listen in" on the Borg when Crusher supposedly removed the implants? Seems like the Borg would've known Picard's strategy as well?


Maybe the collective does something on a much deeper level in the brain than Starfleet medical science can detect?

Hawkeye_90 December 31 2013 06:55 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
The borg cube took massive damage to its outer hall before picard took command that is a data paraphrase when they are on the bridge of the enterprise.

sonak December 31 2013 11:23 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

Hawkeye_90 wrote: (Post 9070345)
The borg cube took massive damage to its outer hall before picard took command that is a data paraphrase when they are on the bridge of the enterprise.


Perhaps Starfleet got better at coordinating an armada engagement with the Borg since Wolf 359.

Count January 1 2014 12:50 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 9069841)
Quote:

Count wrote: (Post 9069661)
So in FC, I argue that the weakness they aimed for was just a hull breach caused in the battle that Picard listened in on to find out was easily exploitable.

I still don't know how Picard is suppose to be able to "listen in" on the Borg when Crusher supposedly removed the implants? Seems like the Borg would've known Picard's strategy as well?

7 of 9 created organic interlink nodes for 3 drones merely using parts of their hippocampus, Locutus being such a critical drone to the invasion of the Federation probably had something vaguely similar done.

Rarewolf January 1 2014 03:22 PM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 9069316)
The first time the Borg and the Enterprise fought in "Q Who", the Enterprise did massive damage and it took quite awhile for the Borg to adapt and repair.

Quite. If you look at the area they damaged they probably could have destroyed the cube if they didn't stop to investigate. Unless the Borg were just playing dead.

Hober Mallow January 2 2014 04:20 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Consistency with the Borg went out the window once they decided to toss out the idea of a Borg collective in favor of a Borg hive with a queen.

Bacl January 2 2014 04:48 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

Hawkeye_90 wrote: (Post 9069019)
In TNG the enterprise weapons and torpedos did nothing to the borg and the borg were able to adapt right away to the star fleet weapons, or so my memory tells me, but yet in first contact the star fleet weapons just tear the cube to pieces how?

The television series was able to do more thoughtful and creative things. they realized the real terror would be weapons being more or less useless against the borg, and thus as the Enterprise and other ships fired on the borg, they had no success (usually) and no real explosion.

But the movie needed to be BIG BIG BIG, and they were interested in making it something "a general audience" can enjoy, which means DUMB IT DOWN, DUMB IT DOWN. Star Trek fans would pay to see it no matter what, so who cares about making a movie for them? If a general audience saw the weapons doing nothing, or fizzling out on the surface of the cube, they'd be like, "Duhhhhhh....why no go boom? Need go boom and fire and 'splosions!" But with giant loud blow-'em-up torpedos, that general audience can hoot and fist pump and so forth.

Why could they blow it up right away, after Captain Picard magically remembers the special spot to fire on to blow it up? Because the plot needed it. They weren't making a movie about an endless space battle. They needed the cube gone. So what if Picard remembers a magic weak spot? No one is going to detect or blow up the tiny sphere that exits, apparently, not even as it flies through a fleet of starships. Have everyone fire on the same spot and blow the thing up.

Gaith January 2 2014 05:09 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 9069841)
I still don't know how Picard is suppose to be able to "listen in" on the Borg when Crusher supposedly removed the implants?

... An ass pull? :p

F. King Daniel January 2 2014 08:53 AM

Re: First contact borg inconsistency?
 
Quote:

Bacl wrote: (Post 9075136)
Quote:

Hawkeye_90 wrote: (Post 9069019)
In TNG the enterprise weapons and torpedos did nothing to the borg and the borg were able to adapt right away to the star fleet weapons, or so my memory tells me, but yet in first contact the star fleet weapons just tear the cube to pieces how?

The television series was able to do more thoughtful and creative things. they realized the real terror would be weapons being more or less useless against the borg, and thus as the Enterprise and other ships fired on the borg, they had no success (usually) and no real explosion.

But the movie needed to be BIG BIG BIG, and they were interested in making it something "a general audience" can enjoy, which means DUMB IT DOWN, DUMB IT DOWN. Star Trek fans would pay to see it no matter what, so who cares about making a movie for them? If a general audience saw the weapons doing nothing, or fizzling out on the surface of the cube, they'd be like, "Duhhhhhh....why no go boom? Need go boom and fire and 'splosions!" But with giant loud blow-'em-up torpedos, that general audience can hoot and fist pump and so forth.

Why could they blow it up right away, after Captain Picard magically remembers the special spot to fire on to blow it up? Because the plot needed it. They weren't making a movie about an endless space battle. They needed the cube gone. So what if Picard remembers a magic weak spot? No one is going to detect or blow up the tiny sphere that exits, apparently, not even as it flies through a fleet of starships. Have everyone fire on the same spot and blow the thing up.

I take your "the plot needed it" and raise you "the TV show couldn't afford it" - particularly in the case of the Enterprise damage. We're told of massive hull breaches and heavy casualties in engineering yet the Borg cutting beam very noticeably isn't leaving a mark on the hull.


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