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dub November 9 2013 09:12 PM

one of the best scenes...
 
I was just watching TWOK. To me, the scene when Bones is telling Kirk to get back his command. He's almost "commanding" him to do it. To me it's one of the best scenes in Trek because it's not an earth-shattering scene, not an action scene, not really monumental in any way. But it shows how extremely close these two guys are. Bones comes in and sprawls out on the chair in front of the fireplace, fussing at his friend in a loving way - really like he's a big brother to Kirk beyond just being a friend and colleague. And DeForest plays it so well.

Flying Spaghetti Monster November 11 2013 02:21 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Firstly: I agree.

Secondly, it should be noted that, in a later scene, Spock tells him exactly the same thing, albeit in a more Spock-like style, using logic.

Both scenes do the impossible: they make what is basically expository dialogue sound completely natural, as if they were real conversations. Important to the story? Yes. Important to the theme of the story? Yes, even more. Advances the plot? Yes. But somehow, they are even more brilliant because both scenes feel so unforced, so natural.

The Bones scene in particular is that way. I think Urban is a fine choice for the nuBones, but there is something wrong, either with his performance or the writing.. but with no scenes like the fireplace scene to go on, it's hard to say, but what made Kelly's Bones so great was that he never seemed to be forcing anything. He really seemed to be Bones. He never seemed to be acting like Bones. He made acting seem effortless.

I would also argue that, for a good portion of TWOK, we never actually see Kirk. At all. We see a middle-aged man with that name. But we don't see the hero, the innovator, the person that we all looked up to. Even as he took command to look into a communication glitch on Regula One, that wasn't Kirk: it was a guy giving standard orders.

Kirk doesn't appear in this film until the moment the guy named Kirk sees Khan on the view screen. From that point on, he is the hero we always knew, someone who can turn a dour situation into a hopeful one, someone who would never give up.

That's the point of the film, I think.

dub November 11 2013 04:04 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Yes. A million times, yes. You said that much more eloquently than I ever could. :techman:

GalaxyX November 11 2013 07:25 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

That's the point of the film, I think.
I think I agree. Wasn't Harve Bennett's idea to go this route, to make the characters match more believably to the age of the actors?

I think that was brilliant! And McCoy is my favourite character in TOS, mostly due to DeForest Kelley's excellent acting skills.

Karl Urban is doing a great job of carrying the torch, even if he looks far too young for it.

Bry_Sinclair November 11 2013 08:04 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: (Post 8874820)
Firstly: I agree.

Secondly, it should be noted that, in a later scene, Spock tells him exactly the same thing, albeit in a more Spock-like style, using logic.

Both scenes do the impossible: they make what is basically expository dialogue sound completely natural, as if they were real conversations. Important to the story? Yes. Important to the theme of the story? Yes, even more. Advances the plot? Yes. But somehow, they are even more brilliant because both scenes feel so unforced, so natural.

The Bones scene in particular is that way. I think Urban is a fine choice for the nuBones, but there is something wrong, either with his performance or the writing.. but with no scenes like the fireplace scene to go on, it's hard to say, but what made Kelly's Bones so great was that he never seemed to be forcing anything. He really seemed to be Bones. He never seemed to be acting like Bones. He made acting seem effortless.

I would also argue that, for a good portion of TWOK, we never actually see Kirk. At all. We see a middle-aged man with that name. But we don't see the hero, the innovator, the person that we all looked up to. Even as he took command to look into a communication glitch on Regula One, that wasn't Kirk: it was a guy giving standard orders.

Kirk doesn't appear in this film until the moment the guy named Kirk sees Khan on the view screen. From that point on, he is the hero we always knew, someone who can turn a dour situation into a hopeful one, someone who would never give up.

That's the point of the film, I think.

Wow. Some very interesting thoughts and ideas there, I will have to go and watch TWOK with this in mind.

Totally agree on the natural feeling of the characters and dialogue though, you really do believe they have seen some of the best and worst times of their life together and share a bond stronger than family.

Karl Urban is also one of the few casting choices in NuTrek I don't have a problem with, if only the writers would make better use of him and put him back into the triumvirate where he belongs (booting NuUhura back to a supporting role).

2takesfrakes November 11 2013 12:39 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Just a sort of "aside" remark, here ... I always hated Kirk's outfit in his Apartment Scene. It looked absurd, wearing his work pants and boots with what looks like some futuristic rendition of Hugh Heffner's smoking jacket. For a long time, I just couldn't get past it. Then, I realized, he wasn't expecting company. This was his "wear around the house" outfit, if you like - which adds even more believability to this sequence. How many of us would be shot on the street if we went out in public with what we find ourselves wearing "around the house"? Otherwise I hated McCoy's line down the center of his shirt, thing. It looked daft ... and was very distracting, as a result. The paisley ascot had to go, too ... what's his excuse, though? Just being old, I guess ... I don't know.

dub November 11 2013 04:03 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
To me one of the mistakes of JJ Trek is he's making it more about Kirk+Spock and Spock+Uhura (at least that's how it felt to me), but as Harve Bennett discovered it's more about Kirk+Spock+McCoy and their friendship together. For all of its faults, that's one thing I feel TFF did well. But TWOK really knocked it out of the park. The relationships felt real without being in your face about it. There was humor without trying too hard. And there was raw emotion. It all felt so real. With that strong triad, TWOK also did a great job of making the Enterprise crew -- all of them -- feel like a strongly connected family. Great film. Still the best IMO!

Flying Spaghetti Monster November 11 2013 04:50 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

2takesfrakes wrote: (Post 8876320)
Just a sort of "aside" remark, here ... I always hated Kirk's outfit in his Apartment Scene. It looked absurd, wearing his work pants and boots with what looks like some futuristic rendition of Hugh Heffner's smoking jacket. For a long time, I just couldn't get past it. Then, I realized, he wasn't expecting company. This was his "wear around the house" outfit, if you like - which adds even more believability to this sequence. How many of us would be shot on the street if we went out in public with what we find ourselves wearing "around the house"? Otherwise I hated McCoy's line down the center of his shirt, thing. It looked daft ... and was very distracting, as a result. The paisley ascot had to go, too ... what's his excuse, though? Just being old, I guess ... I don't know.

i never really minded the shirts, but McCoy's pants had a wierd pattern on the side, as if trying outline his underwear or something.

But no matter, it's such a strong scene. It is something that help gives the film its very soul.

sbk1234 November 14 2013 07:47 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
I hate to say something will "never" be topped, because that seems like a closed minded attitude, and with that attitude, things will NEVER be as good in the future as in the past. That said, this scene, and the mentioned points about TWOK demonstrate why it hasn't been topped, yet. And why it will be so hard for this movie to be topped in the future.
But I do hope they top it someday.

SchwEnt November 14 2013 10:41 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
I agree, a fine scene. And it contrasts nicely with McCoy chastising Kirk in the previous film:

KIRK: Make your point, Doctor.
McCOY: The point, Captain, is that it's you who's competing. ...You rammed getting this command down Starfleet's throat. You've used this emergency to get Enterprise back.
KIRK: And I intend to keep her, is it that what you're saying?
McCOY: Yes! It's an obsession, an obsession that can blind you to far more immediate, and critical responsibilities.

And then in TWOK McCoy is urging Kirk to get his command back, rather than not pursuing it.

I know, different circumstances and such, but I think the scenes play well against each other.

sbk1234 November 14 2013 10:49 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
And in both cases, Bones was fighting for what would be best for Kirk's well being.

2takesfrakes November 15 2013 12:29 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: (Post 8876827)
i never really minded the shirts, but McCoy's pants had a wierd pattern on the side, as if trying outline his underwear or something.

But no matter, it's such a strong scene. It is something that help gives the film its very soul.

I'm convinced that McCoy's duatone pants were a highly stylized representation of Cowboy Chaps, to be really honest about it. Cowboys, naturally, wear the vest and the bandanna around the neck and all that ... Bones certainly has the boots. By his own admission, McCoy is "... just a simple country doctor."

anh165 November 15 2013 06:40 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

dub wrote: (Post 8876749)
To me one of the mistakes of JJ Trek is he's making it more about Kirk+Spock and Spock+Uhura (at least that's how it felt to me), but as Harve Bennett discovered it's more about Kirk+Spock+McCoy and their friendship together. For all of its faults, that's one thing I feel TFF did well. But TWOK really knocked it out of the park. The relationships felt real without being in your face about it. There was humor without trying too hard. And there was raw emotion. It all felt so real. With that strong triad, TWOK also did a great job of making the Enterprise crew -- all of them -- feel like a strongly connected family. Great film. Still the best IMO!

That is out of context.

JJ Trek made it about characters still getting to know and understand each other, they are in their 20's and far from the middle aged veterans you see in TWOK.

As for middle aged characters in JJ Trek, Bruce Greenwood's performance as Pike would not look out of place being in the TMP era movies himself.

dub November 16 2013 12:46 AM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

anh165 wrote: (Post 8894440)
JJ Trek made it about characters still getting to know and understand each other, they are in their 20's and far from the middle aged veterans you see in TWOK.

Well, that's another problem. When they reused those lines from TWOK in Into Darkness, I'm of course going to immediately compare the performance to the original. And those young characters just couldn't come close to pulling off the level of emotion that those same lines had in TWOK. The characters in TWOK had years of history together, whereas the characters in JJ Trek were still getting to know each other as you said. Nothing wrong with that, but the reused scenes from TWOK just didn't work in Into Darkness for that reason. If you're going to re-use lines or scenes, you should make sure the new version is either way better or a parody. And for me, those lines came off as parody in Into Darkness. I understand it's subjective, but that was my experience with it. Plus, I just didn't like the concept of reusing the lines. I understand what they were trying to do, but it didn't work for me. Those scenes (and the Nimoy cameo) aside, I actually loved Into Darkness. Unfortunately, those scenes came at a critical time in the movie.

saavikam December 3 2013 11:15 PM

Re: one of the best scenes...
 
Quote:

dub wrote: (Post 8876749)
Harve Bennett discovered it's more about Kirk+Spock+McCoy and their friendship together. For all of its faults, that's one thing I feel TFF did well. But TWOK really knocked it out of the park. The relationships felt real without being in your face about it. There was humor without trying too hard. And there was raw emotion. It all felt so real. With that strong triad, TWOK also did a great job of making the Enterprise crew -- all of them -- feel like a strongly connected family. Great film. Still the best IMO!

I agree that the more intimate scenes in TWoK between characters who have been friends for years were superb. The interactions came across as natural and nothing was forced. These were performed, however, by actors who really owned the characters. They had played them from the beginning, shaped them in our consciousness and knew them inside-out.

Quote:

dub wrote: (Post 8876749)
To me one of the mistakes of JJ Trek is he's making it more about Kirk+Spock and Spock+Uhura (at least that's how it felt to me), but as Harve Bennett discovered it's more about Kirk+Spock+McCoy and their friendship together.

In the reboot the characters are still getting to know each other and it will take time for the long-established relationships from the original to develop. They are also not quite the same as the old characters we know and love as their timeline has been altered. Those experiences that made them what they were have changed and so we should expect subtle differences in the rebooted characters. What we cannot expect are carbon copies of the originals.


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