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trekkist November 4 2013 05:17 AM

TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
In "Bread & Circuses," Spock refers to 6 million having been killed in WWI, 11 million in WWII (and of course 37 in WWIII). A 1965 Almanac gives 8.5 million & 26.6 million respectively (those being troop dead, with no inclusion of civilians), which means the figures cited could easily have been checked and found wrong at the time.

In-universe, this suggests an alternate timeline predating WWI…but has anyone speculation (or better) as to how the mistaken figures made it to the air? Fact-checking in Season One is on record, and lawyer-checking, at least, in Season Two (as in the Gerrold's flatcars, eh, tribbles). Was late Season Two so rushed as to explain these errors?

CommishSleer November 4 2013 05:41 AM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Spock may be counting just the Allied deaths.

I mean who cares how many Germans or Russians or Chinese people died? :rolleyes:

Well maybe in the 60s when the Cold War was in full swing. When no Chinese actors were actually allowed in TOS. I think nowadays after 60 years we can consider every death, even those of 'our' enemies.

Melakon November 4 2013 05:48 AM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
According to Memory Alpha, Roddenberry was rewriting pages all through filming, so perhaps there wasn't time or money to get some of the details researched.

Harvey November 4 2013 07:24 AM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
A de Forest Research memo (dated September 15, 1967) actually covered this, but I believe the episode was being hastily rewritten by Roddenberry and Coon throughout filming, so they may not have been able to implement the change.

Also, the dates I have indicate the episode was filmed September 12-20, 1967, so the scene may have already gone before the cameras by the time the de Forest memo arrived.

Quote:

de Forest Research wrote:
six million who died in your First World War, the eleven million in the Second, the thirty-seven million in your Third – In WWI there were 8.5 million deaths; in WWII, 30,538,000. 37 million deaths for WWIII seems conservative; suggest 260 million.

The fact that the previous two de Forest memos (dated May 10, 1967 and September 7, 1967) didn't address this suggests that this dialogue was a last minute change. That's also supported by the fact that the episode brings up World War III, a topic which NBC had specifically asked Roddenberry to avoid previously (on May 17, 1966, in reference to a revision of 'The Corbomite Maneuver'):

Quote:

Stan Robertson wrote:
As we discussed, a suggestion would be that on Page 48 of this draft, it be made pointedly clear that there was no “World War III” between the Sino-Western powers. Let’s keep emphasizing with our writers, as we know you have been, that this is a topic we’d like to avoid.


T'Girl November 4 2013 12:55 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

CommishSleer wrote: (Post 8847361)
Spock may be counting just the Allied deaths.

Spock's figure for WW 1 is close to the number for allied military deaths of 5.7 million.

It's possible that Spock was simply wrong in the figures that he recited, he's not infallible. And that neither Kirk nor McCoy choose to correct him at that time, assuming that either of them knew off hand the correct figures.

It was later established that 600 million died in the Trek 3rd world war, and the 37 million dead could have been for the eugenics war. Spock confused the eugenic war with the 3rd world war once before in Space Seed, and might have been repeating the mistake.


:)

trekkist November 4 2013 05:36 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Thanks, Harvey. That's exactly what I was looking for. My GOD, I love this forum.

David

Romulan_spy November 4 2013 05:41 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
In-universe, there is the possibility that the Enterprise records could be wrong. After all, it's several several centuries since these events took place. Perhaps, the information got lost or distorted in that time. After all, maybe some of our numbers about events 400 years old are wrong too?

Melakon November 4 2013 06:00 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
And in one episode (Tomorrow is Yesterday? Assignment: Earth? City on the Edge of Forever?), Spock makes a comment, "Records from that period in your Earth's history are fragmentary."

Lots of history might have been lost due to the hypothetical World War III.

Shawnster November 4 2013 08:41 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

CommishSleer wrote: (Post 8847361)
Spock may be counting just the Allied deaths.

I mean who cares how many Germans or Russians or Chinese people died? :rolleyes:

Well maybe in the 60s when the Cold War was in full swing. When no Chinese actors were actually allowed in TOS. I think nowadays after 60 years we can consider every death, even those of 'our' enemies.

China and Russia were part of the allied forces in both WWI and WWII. Allied deaths would include Chinese and Russian casualties.

scotpens November 4 2013 08:54 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8848903)
And in one episode (Tomorrow is Yesterday? Assignment: Earth? City on the Edge of Forever?), Spock makes a comment, "Records from that period in your Earth's history are fragmentary."

Are you perhaps thinking of "Space Seed"?
Quote:

SPOCK: Hull surface is pitted with meteor scars. However, scanners make out a name. S.S. Botany Bay.
KIRK: Then you can check the registry.
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.

Melakon November 4 2013 09:03 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

scotpens wrote: (Post 8849569)
Are you perhaps thinking of "Space Seed"?

That must be it. I overdosed on "Tomorrow" and "Space Seed" when the computer was down in September.

The line does suggest details of the 20th century may be lacking by Kirk's day.

T'Girl November 4 2013 09:11 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

scotpens wrote: (Post 8849569)
Quote:

SPOCK: ... Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.

The first and second world wars were before "that period."

Even with the later and larger third world war it is hard to imagine all historical records world wide disappearing.


:)

BillJ November 4 2013 10:06 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 8849620)
Quote:

scotpens wrote: (Post 8849569)
Quote:

SPOCK: ... Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.

The first and second world wars were before "that period."

Even with the later and larger third world war it is hard to imagine all historical records world wide disappearing.


:)

Depending on how badly the Eugenics and third World War went, I can easily see some information being lost or distorted.

A Colonel Green or Khan Noonien Singh may have had records of certain events modified or even purged for some reason.

drt November 6 2013 11:07 AM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Quote:

Harvey wrote: (Post 8847547)
The fact that the previous two de Forest memos (dated May 10, 1967 and September 7, 1967) didn't address this suggests that this dialogue was a last minute change. That's also supported by the fact that the episode brings up World War III, a topic which NBC had specifically asked Roddenberry to avoid previously (on May 17, 1966, in reference to a revision of 'The Corbomite Maneuver'):

Quote:

Stan Robertson wrote:
As we discussed, a suggestion would be that on Page 48 of this draft, it be made pointedly clear that there was no “World War III” between the Sino-Western powers. Let’s keep emphasizing with our writers, as we know you have been, that this is a topic we’d like to avoid.


Based on that quote, the issue seems to be more to avoid specific mention of the combatants in hypothetical future wars.

T'Girl November 6 2013 07:31 PM

Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead
 
Exactly who were the combatants was still unspecified in First Contact, a government or group known as "econ" was mentioned, but what part they played in the war is unclear.

Might just have be a eco terrorist group that was harassing Cochrane's effort to create a FTL engine.


:)


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