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Noddy November 2 2013 07:57 PM

Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
I'm somewhat curious: Could the Temporal Cold War, as shown in numerous episodes of Enterprise, have altered any historical events previously shown in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY? According to Trek author Christopher Bennett (and assuming I understand him correctly), if time travel from the future results in changes made to the past, those changes are only carried through to the era the time travel originated in if the time travelers return to their era, or information travels from the altered past to the future in some manner. Basically, I wonder if a lot of what we saw in ENT originally applied to the stuff set later in time.

F. King Daniel November 2 2013 08:07 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

Noddy wrote: (Post 8841478)
I'm somewhat curious: Could the Temporal Cold War, as shown in numerous episodes of Enterprise, have altered any historical events previously shown in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY? According to Trek author Christopher Bennett (and assuming I understand him correctly), if time travel from the future results in changes made to the past, those changes are only carried through to the era the time travel originated in if the time travelers return to their era, or information travels from the altered past to the future in some manner. Basically, I wonder if a lot of what we saw in ENT originally applied to the stuff set later in time.

I'm of the belief that the Temporal Cold War and Enterprise created the timeline we see in TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY, not moved away from it. Look at "In a Mirror, Darkly" and "These are the Voyages" for proof - neither of which would be possible if the timeline had diverged from the Prime universe. Look at "Azati Prime" where we see the Delphic Expanse taking up the entire quadrant by the 26th century, yet we never saw or heard of it in any Primeverse shows or movies. Why? Because the Enterprise destroyed it in "Zero Hour"

There ARE continuity errors and retcons in Enterprise, but they are no worse than those in other Treks (see: videos in my sig for proof - the TOS Enterprise would have made Voyager's journey home in a month!) and are no more evidence of alternate timelines than any of them are.

Noddy November 2 2013 08:11 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
How could the timeline shown in ENT lead into the TOS+ one, when ENT was specifically a continuation of the alternate history created in First Contact, when the Borg tried to stop Zefram Cochrane's warp flight? I've often wondered if Seven of Nine originally existed prior to the events of FC, as that movie did appear to make out that humanity became aware of the Borg much earlier, which may have been what led to the Hansens setting out to study them.

GameOn November 2 2013 08:13 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Personally I'm all for putting Enterprise into its own separate timeline that was created when the Borg went back in time in First Contact. Also according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline which suggests that future events would unfolded in a different way as a result.

Noddy November 2 2013 08:18 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

GameOn wrote: (Post 8841550)
Personally I'm all for putting Enterprise into its own separate timeline that was created when the Borg went back in time in First Contact. Also according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline which suggests that future events would unfolded in a different way as a result.

It could also be that any changes to history by the Temporal Cold War were ultimately negligible, and the timeline eventually sorted itself out to still lead into the future we're familiar with.

F. King Daniel November 2 2013 08:24 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

Noddy wrote: (Post 8841535)
How could the timeline shown in ENT lead into the TOS+ one, when ENT was specifically a continuation of the alternate history created in First Contact, when the Borg tried to stop Zefram Cochrane's warp flight? I've often wondered if Seven of Nine originally existed prior to the events of FC, as that movie did appear to make out that humanity became aware of the Borg much earlier, which may have been what led to the Hansens setting out to study them.

Because FC isn't an altered history. It "always" happened that way, the Next Gen crew just didn't know it. Take a look at this scene from "Relativity" ...

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.

SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.

SEVEN: You're welcome.

http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/523.htm


Seven learned that from the USS Relativity's computer, studying for her mission into Voyager's past. The 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission scan time as easily as the 24th Century Voyager scans space, they would know if history had been altered. Furthermore, it's the writers explicitly spelling out their intention.

Ho Ho Homeier November 2 2013 08:27 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
For all we know, Archer's timeline was created when McCoy saved Edith Keeler's life.

Noddy November 2 2013 08:27 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
I'm sure I read that Christopher does have it that the Borg going back in time did change history to some extent.

C.E. Evans November 2 2013 08:33 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

Noddy wrote:
It could also be that any changes to history by the Temporal Cold War were ultimately negligible, and the timeline eventually sorted itself out to still lead into the future we're familiar with.

That's my take on it.

I think at the conclusion of the TCW, Trek's history was largely preserved. The Xindi attack on Earth may not have been mentioned onscreen in TOS, TNG, DS9, & VOY, but it might have been so offscreen.

GameOn November 2 2013 08:40 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 8841649)
Quote:

Noddy wrote:
It could also be that any changes to history by the Temporal Cold War were ultimately negligible, and the timeline eventually sorted itself out to still lead into the future we're familiar with.

That's my take on it.

I think at the conclusion of the TCW, Trek's history was largely preserved. The Xindi attack on Earth may not have been mentioned onscreen in TOS, TNG, DS9, & VOY, but it might have been so offscreen.

And resulted in Riker and Troi looking 11 years older at the time of "The Pegasus".

Noddy November 2 2013 08:41 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
The Borg changing established history in FC, thus leading to the events of ENT "Regeneration", could go some way toward explaining how, in VOY, humanity had knowledge of the Borg well before Picard met them in TNG "Q Who?".

C.E. Evans November 2 2013 08:50 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

GameOn wrote: (Post 8841682)
Quote:

C.E. Evans wrote: (Post 8841649)
Quote:

Noddy wrote:
It could also be that any changes to history by the Temporal Cold War were ultimately negligible, and the timeline eventually sorted itself out to still lead into the future we're familiar with.

That's my take on it.

I think at the conclusion of the TCW, Trek's history was largely preserved. The Xindi attack on Earth may not have been mentioned onscreen in TOS, TNG, DS9, & VOY, but it might have been so offscreen.

And resulted in Riker and Troi looking 11 years older at the time of "The Pegasus".

That's simply the real-world difference of a later television production trying to match an earlier one with the same actors.
Quote:

Noddy wrote: (Post 8841685)
The Borg changing established history in FC, thus leading to the events of ENT "Regeneration", could go some way toward explaining how, in VOY, humanity had knowledge of the Borg well before Picard met them in TNG "Q Who?".

Star Trek: Generations would explain that too if El-Aurian refugees in the late 23rd-Century told Starfleet their world had just been destroyed by the Borg.

Noddy November 2 2013 08:58 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?

Ho Ho Homeier November 2 2013 09:02 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

Noddy wrote: (Post 8841736)
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?

You can explain that by saying it was on a "need to know" basis. Until Q shot the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant, Picard had "no need to know".

C.E. Evans November 2 2013 09:08 PM

Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history
 
Quote:

Noddy wrote: (Post 8841736)
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?

Probably because no one thought (at the time) to look in the database to see if the Federation had encountered what Picard and his crew believed was a new alien race that far out from Federation space. Afterwards--once they had stopped running for their lives--they likely were able to review previous encounters.
Quote:

Melakon wrote:
You can explain that by saying it was on a "need to know" basis. Until Q shot the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant, Picard had "no need to know".

That could work too. Even Starfleet has big things that are classified to all but those with the highest security clearance, IMO.


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