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SignGuyHPW October 11 2013 05:56 AM

The Borg
 
Were the writers wrong for having The Borg on an episode of Enterprise? I know they wanted to take advantage of The Borg's popularity as Star Trek villans to lure some viewers, but it didn't really fit. It was established in TNG that The Borg and Federation worlds hadn't come into contact. Wouldn't the records of Enterprise have been available to identify that they had been on a Federation vessel years earlier? Wouldn't Data have said, "An earlier ship called Enterprise captained by Jonathon Archer encountered a species that resembles The Borg on "such and such" stardate. They learned..."

Melakon October 11 2013 06:14 AM

Re: The Borg
 
That's the usual sort of objection to it. Somehow Starfleet never puts two and two together because they're never mentioned by name in the episode. Same thing happens with the Ferengi.

Of course, the real reason is all those other shows were filmed before ENT, and the writers tried to shoehorn them in (based on the events of the film ST: First Contact), so they could use up all those unused Borg sets and costumes sitting around.

R. Star October 11 2013 06:25 AM

Re: The Borg
 
My main complaint about Regeneration is... they had a Borg episode just for the sake of having a Borg episode and shoehorned it through in as unbelievable a fashion as possible. Beyond it having Borg the episode contributed nothing to the rest of the series.

But this isn't the only time Archer and company are seemingly horrible at recordkeeping. They way the stumbled though the first two seasons it's a wonder they didn't fly into a star while Archer's shouting this isn't on our star charts.

SignGuyHPW October 11 2013 06:44 AM

Re: The Borg
 
The Ferangi don't bother me as much. They clearly established that the Ferangi were well known to the Federation in the early days of TNG. It's not a huge leap that The Ferangi were around in the days of Kirk, but just hadn't been a species the Enterprise encountered directly. The Borg was established to have not been aware of humans before Q interfered. If Archer's ship had come across this then it'd have been picked up by SOMEONE in Starfleet when they were studying The Borg to prepare for the invasion. It's not logical that they'd not pick up on it.

Bry_Sinclair October 11 2013 06:46 AM

Re: The Borg
 
They were wrong, very wrong, to include it.

I get it that there was only a handful of Borg, but they were 24th century Borg, surely they would have done far more damage and had a much greater effect on the 22nd century. Also, having Phlox's "immunity" to assimilation was a joke and far too convenient (plus had the boffins at Starfleet Intelligence, who obviously kept this whole thing quiet, knew the Denobulans had such an advantage over the Borg why weren't they developing that immunity for two hundred years, ready to provide every Starfleet ship/base with a hypo to prevent assimilation when the Borg finally showed up again?).

It's a poor example of taking an established Trek race and cramming them into the new series without any thought or finesse, as they did with the Ferengi and Klingons. I'm surprised they never brought Q in for another appearance.

Bry_Sinclair October 11 2013 06:52 AM

Re: The Borg
 
Quote:

SignGuyHPW wrote: (Post 8755276)
The Ferangi don't bother me as much. They clearly established that the Ferangi were well known to the Federation in the early days of TNG.

Not really 'well known'.

From Picard's log entry at the beginning of "The Last Outpost": ...providing us with the long awaited opportunity to make close contact with a Ferengi vessel.

Starfleet knew of the Ferengi through rumours and reports from other species but hadn't had any direct contact with them, their ships were unknown and the E-D crew had obviously never seen any image of the Ferengi before.

AllStarEntprise October 11 2013 07:06 AM

Re: The Borg
 
I don't really my the continuity problems from 'Regeneration'. Mostly because I consider the ENT timeline to be an AU created from the effects of FC. Time travel was used to rewrite established history. Similar to what we see in ST09 with Nero and Spock.

teacake October 11 2013 07:48 AM

Re: The Borg
 
I loved Regeneration, a very good ep after a lot of mediocre ones. Great music, enjoyed the The Thing homage, very well done.

Melakon October 11 2013 08:10 AM

Re: The Borg
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8755330)
I don't really my the continuity problems from 'Regeneration'. Mostly because I consider the ENT timeline to be an AU created from the effects of FC. Time travel was used to rewrite established history. Similar to what we see in ST09 with Nero and Spock.

I had wondered about this during first run, especially with all the "Akiraprise" business being thrown around back then. It would have been a believable way to go in my opinion. In fact, I initially thought that was what the whole Temporal Cold War thing was setting up.

Bry_Sinclair October 11 2013 08:59 AM

Re: The Borg
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8755330)
I don't really my the continuity problems from 'Regeneration'. Mostly because I consider the ENT timeline to be an AU created from the effects of FC. Time travel was used to rewrite established history. Similar to what we see in ST09 with Nero and Spock.

I like that theory. That way neither ENT or NuTrek have any impact on proper Trek :)

trash80 October 11 2013 09:24 AM

Re: The Borg
 
IMO the many time line changes and events we've seen during the movies and series (and how many others must have also gone unseen) must have changed things. Hence NuTrek, thats what TOS is now. All our Original TOS/TNG/DS9 et cetera footage is luckily protected from chroniton radiation so shows us the future as it originally was... ;)

King Daniel Into Darkness October 11 2013 09:32 AM

Re: The Borg
 
I love "Regeneration". It's a lot of fun to watch. Those who can't enjoy it because it messes with their notions of continuity are watching Trek wrong.

Quote:

Bry_Sinclair wrote: (Post 8755648)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8755330)
I don't really my the continuity problems from 'Regeneration'. Mostly because I consider the ENT timeline to be an AU created from the effects of FC. Time travel was used to rewrite established history. Similar to what we see in ST09 with Nero and Spock.

I like that theory. That way neither ENT or NuTrek have any impact on proper Trek :)

Except canon explicitly states that is not the case.

From VOY: "Relativity"...

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.

SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.

SEVEN: You're welcome.

MakeshiftPython October 11 2013 10:14 AM

Re: The Borg
 
I don't object too much to this episode. I think it was fun to do a follow-up of sort of FIRST CONTACT. I also dug THE THING vibe at the beginning. I do think the Borg came off as too powerful (like when they instantly replicate an entire console just by using their assimilation tubules). I was able to go along with the idea that the nano-probes were functioning slower because of being so few after a hundred years in snow. There are some nits, but I thought it was fun to do this one time thing. Much better handled than the Ferengi episode, of course.

AllStarEntprise October 11 2013 10:16 AM

Re: The Borg
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8755765)
I love "Regeneration". It's a lot of fun to watch. Those who can't enjoy it because it messes with their notions of continuity are watching Trek wrong.

Quote:

Bry_Sinclair wrote: (Post 8755648)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8755330)
I don't really my the continuity problems from 'Regeneration'. Mostly because I consider the ENT timeline to be an AU created from the effects of FC. Time travel was used to rewrite established history. Similar to what we see in ST09 with Nero and Spock.

I like that theory. That way neither ENT or NuTrek have any impact on proper Trek :)

Except canon explicitly states that is not the case.

From VOY: "Relativity"...

DUCANE: Let's see how much you've assimilated. The Dali paradox.

SEVEN: Also known as the Melting Clock Effect. It refers to a temporal fissure which slows the passage of time to a gradual halt.

DUCANE: The Pogo Paradox.

SEVEN: A causality loop in which interference to prevent an event actually triggers the same event.

DUCANE: Excellent. Can you give me an example?

SEVEN: The Borg once travelled back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane from breaking the warp barrier. They succeeded, but that in turn led the Starship Enterprise to intervene. They assisted Cochrane with the flight the Borg was trying to prevent. Causal loop complete.

DUCANE: So, in a way, the Federation owes its existence to the Borg.

SEVEN: You're welcome.

Didn't we discuss this in another thread recently? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=212872 Lol

'Relativity' takes the liberties with a lot Trek canon.

Such as the first time the Doctor was activated. The Doctor himself says he was first activated during the Caretaker situation, in the episode 'Projections'. 'Relativity' contradicts that.

In "Future's End', Captain Braxton says he has no memories of being stranded in the 20th century. Yet in 'Relativity' he says he does remember that life.

In 'Caretaker' Janeway says she wants Tom Paris to help her find the Maqui. In 'Relativity' it's changed to wanting him for his piloting skills. Despite him never piloting the ship in the Badlands


The biggest problem with Seven's statement is there is no way for her to have that information. She can't possibly know that the Borg would both succeed and fail to assimilate Earth. As far as FC goes, the Borg never managed to send a message to the Delta Quad. Picard and Worf destroyed the dish before they could send a signal. It's a goof by the writers like the other goofs listed above with regards to this episode.

ENT 'Regeneration" does help seal the gaps in Seven's assessment of history. However with Relativity airing years before ENT inception. Seven's remark about it all being a pogo paradox is a bit of a goof.

Lastly if the Borg never traveled back in time to thwart Cochrane, then the flight of the Phoenix would've gone off without a snag. I don't think that is a causality loop.

King Daniel Into Darkness October 11 2013 10:50 AM

Re: The Borg
 
Yeah, I know it's come up before. I can't help myself:)

Seven knows about the Borg assimilating Earth because of the message the survivors sent in "Regeneration". It's only by insisting that FC and ENT are an AU that there is a problem there.

Don't get me wrong, VOY and ENT have discontinuities just like every incarnation of Trek. But I'll put direct canon evidence (see also IaMD, which ties directly into TOS, and TaTV, shitty as it is, which ties into TNG) and author intent over fan segregation any day.


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