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-   -   Kirk's Health in XII (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=226951)

Kadratis September 26 2013 01:20 AM

Kirk's Health in XII
 
I've seen the film twice, and just watched the bluray, but I haven't listened to the commentary yet, but I was wondering: in the first quarter of the film, Bones is overly worried about Kirk's health. Could this be an abandoned plot line that would have Kirk being relieved of duty because of his mental state?

OpenMaw September 26 2013 01:28 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
His health is in question because Pike was killed in front of him. He was no doubt showing signs of general stress, PTSD, survivors guilt. Etc... :) It's supposed to play into the notions of conflict being set up early on, and indicate that his state of mind is probably not what it should be to take on the mission. It's something that he slowly sheds as they get closer to the mission at hand.

Hythlodeus September 26 2013 11:53 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Quote:

OpenMaw wrote: (Post 8691925)
His health is in question because Pike was killed in front of him. He was no doubt showing signs of general stress, PTSD, survivors guilt. Etc... :) It's supposed to play into the notions of conflict being set up early on, and indicate that his state of mind is probably not what it should be to take on the mission. It's something that he slowly sheds as they get closer to the mission at hand.

that's what I thought first. but after frequent rewatching I got the impression that after bones got the test results he was even more worried about kirks health and it doesn't look like it was about his stress level

JarodRussell September 26 2013 12:04 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
One of the things that was completely dropped, made no sense and had no point.

OpenMaw September 26 2013 08:37 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Mental stress can have physical side effects. Increase heart rate, higher blood pressure, it can throw your chemical balances all off. That's what I wager McCoy was talking about more than anything.

Timby September 26 2013 08:51 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Quote:

OpenMaw wrote: (Post 8694754)
Mental stress can have physical side effects. Increase heart rate, higher blood pressure, it can throw your chemical balances all off. That's what I wager McCoy was talking about more than anything.

Exactly. McCoy's exact words were "Jim, your vitals are way off." Presumably he means vitals in the same way today's medical professionals do: Heart rate, blood pressure, pulse ox, presumably because of the stress he's under. It was just a quick dialogue device to further convey to the audience that shit ain't right, like Spock's objections to the mission and the inversion of the theme that plays when the shuttle is leaving for the Enterprise.

Locutus of Bored September 26 2013 10:25 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Quote:

JarodRussell wrote: (Post 8693233)
One of the things that was completely dropped, made no sense and had no point.

If it was completely dropped it wouldn't have been mentioned more than once as an ongoing concern of McCoy's, which it was.

It makes no sense to you that someone would suffer mental and physical trauma from being in the middle of a terrorist attack where several people were killed right in front of him, including his friend, mentor, adoptive father figure, the man who believed in and promoted him, his first commander, and his recent career savior?

It has no point in a film that's largely about shattering Kirk's overconfidence and false sense of immortality? Did you miss the whole speech shortly before the attack about how he had not lost any of his crew, and how Pike called him out for his hubris in thinking he's invincible? Did you miss Kirk's lack of confidence when Carol rebuffed his advances that had worked a thousand times before, including in this same film? Did you miss the utter anguish in Kirk's face later on when he couldn't think of a way out of the Vengeance destroying them, and his heartfelt apology to the crew? Did you miss Kirk's admitting to the fact that he didn't know what to do, he only knew what he could do? Did you miss his willingness to sacrifice himself for his crew as a result and his fear upon facing his own mortality?

Jesus, it's not like it was a hidden subplot or anything. The whole movie dealt with breaking down the self-made myth of James T. Kirk and making him into the more mature, responsible commander we knew him as in TOS.

JarodRussell September 26 2013 10:45 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
I thought we were already making clear that McCoy was somehow concerned about his physical health, not mental health (see Hythlodeus' post). And that was dropped as soon as the second act began, hence it made no sense and had no point.

Locutus of Bored September 27 2013 12:11 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Quote:

JarodRussell wrote: (Post 8695225)
I thought we were already making clear that McCoy was somehow concerned about his physical health, not mental health (see Hythlodeus' post). And that was dropped as soon as the second act began, hence it made no sense and had no point.

PTSD and the resulting anxiety, depression, loss of sleep, and other factors have physical health consequences as well. McCoy was concerned about Kirk's vital readings. Anxiety, sleeplessness, loss of appetite, grieving; they all can affect your heart rate, blood pressure, and other vitals.

There could have also been some more direct physical trauma from the attack as well (Kirk being directly in the line of fire when that massive window exploded in front of him, for instance). Not enough to stop him from doing his job during a crisis, but enough to have the very cautious doctor concerned for his friend.

Neither of those is dropping the issue, though. They simply deferred treatment until after the immediate crisis was over, by which time it was a moot point since Kirk had died, been brought back by the Lazarus Tribble, recuperated in the hospital in a coma, and a year had passed where he was likely grounded and would receive further mental care and physical rehabilitation.

Praetor September 27 2013 02:44 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Kadratis, I started a thread about the same topic a while back. I thought the same.

saddestmoon September 27 2013 02:47 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
McCoy is doing what any good's ship's doctor should be doing: monitoring the health / wellbeing of his captain.

In leau of events early in the movie, he's simply doing his job and keeping an eye on Kirk, as one would expect of his role.

As far as a plot oversight, it's nothing of the sort, IMO.

Praetor September 27 2013 02:50 AM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
That's was my final conclusion as well. McCoy was overly concerned, as a good friend/doctor (froctor?) should be, and it was played to comedic effect.

22 Stars September 30 2013 02:40 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 8696035)
That's was my final conclusion as well. McCoy was overly concerned, as a good friend/doctor (froctor?) should be, and it was played to comedic effect.

If that was the case, then it wasn't that funny and they should have left it out altogether. I too thought it was an important plot point waiting for further exploration and then dropped. The film seemed very disjointed to me. Loved the first half, and then disliked the second half a lot.

Shame the writers didn't stay with their 'this villian doesn't have to be Khan' phase.

Spockkirk January 1 2014 05:50 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
I think McCoy was trying to tell Kirk he needed to slow down and think about what he was doing. Also McCoy was right to be worried for his friend because I think he could tell Kirk was angry about what happened to their friend. Too bad McCoy didn't tie him to a hospital bed though!!!

King Daniel Into Darkness January 1 2014 07:37 PM

Re: Kirk's Health in XII
 
The point was that, if Kirk was in his right mind he wouldn't have gone on a mission to kill Harrison without trial. Once he calmed down a bit, he realized what he was doing was wrong, heeded everyone's advice and went down to capture him alive.


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