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The Overlord September 24 2013 04:35 AM

The Son'a
 
We have talked a lot about the Baku on the this forum, but I thought it might be interesting to look at the Son'a.

These guys are not very interesting, their most heinous acts happen off screen and they seemed like a really poor follow up to the Borg.

The revelation they were really Ba'ku were not handled well (and brought up a million questions). Were the Son'a supposed to sympathetic or just evil, because you can argue the Son'a had a valid claim to the planet, but all the off screen villainy is supposed to render them unsympathetic.

It seems like they should have done something different with them: either make them more evil and give them no real connection to the Ba'ku, they are merely monstrous invaders who want to steal the secrets of eternal youth or make them more sympathetic to play up the gray nature of the moral dilemma that supposed to be at the heart of the film or get rid of them altogether and give the conflict just between the Federation and the Ba'ku.

sonak September 24 2013 05:37 AM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8684497)
We have talked a lot about the Baku on the this forum, but I thought it might be interesting to look at the Son'a.

These guys are not very interesting, their most heinous acts happen off screen and they seemed like a really poor follow up to the Borg.

The revelation they were really Ba'ku were not handled well (and brought up a million questions). Were the Son'a supposed to sympathetic or just evil, because you can argue the Son'a had a valid claim to the planet, but all the off screen villainy is supposed to render them unsympathetic.

It seems like they should have done something different with them: either make them more evil and give them no real connection to the Ba'ku, they are merely monstrous invaders who want to steal the secrets of eternal youth or make them more sympathetic to play up the gray nature of the moral dilemma that supposed to be at the heart of the film or get rid of them altogether and give the conflict just between the Federation and the Ba'ku.



They are not supposed to be sympathetic, they are supposed to be one-dimensional bad guys. Unfortunately, the premise of INS is so poorly thought out that they end up being sympathetic and you wind up thinking "hey, why are we as viewers supposed to be rooting for the Baku?"


I agree that making the Son'a part of the Baku was a huge mistake. It gave the Son'a even MORE of a case that they were in the right by giving them equal claim to the planet. Had the Son'a not been part of the Baku, but instead generic invaders, and had the Baku been native to the planet, the premise would have been a little better.(though the movie would have still been poor)

DonIago September 24 2013 06:24 AM

Re: The Son'a
 
Unless we're not -supposed- to be entirely sympathetic towards the presumed "Good Guys".

CommishSleer September 24 2013 08:54 AM

Re: The Son'a
 
It wasn't the Baku or Sona's planet of origin so I don't have sympathy or like either.

In fact I barely liked the Enterprise crew in this one.

Was that the producers plan ? If so they succeeded magnificiently with me at least.

Picard was defending the right of one group of settlers to kick another group of settlers off the planet. Non-Federation citizens. I don't even think Kirk would have gotten involved.

But Picard jumped in because it seemed on the surface the Baku's leader was hot stuff. I remember the episode where he forcibly moved the Native Americans from their Spiritual home in Cardassian space. I felt a tonne more sympathy for the Native Americans.

sonak September 24 2013 03:17 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

CommishSleer wrote: (Post 8684845)
It wasn't the Baku or Sona's planet of origin so I don't have sympathy or like either.

In fact I barely liked the Enterprise crew in this one.

Was that the producers plan ? If so they succeeded magnificiently with me at least.

Picard was defending the right of one group of settlers to kick another group of settlers off the planet. Non-Federation citizens. I don't even think Kirk would have gotten involved.

But Picard jumped in because it seemed on the surface the Baku's leader was hot stuff. I remember the episode where he forcibly moved the Native Americans from their Spiritual home in Cardassian space. I felt a tonne more sympathy for the Native Americans.


yeah, juxtaposing "journey's end" with "insurrection" really makes Picard look bad. Every argument he makes in "journey's end" can be turned against himself in "insurrection."

R. Star September 24 2013 04:25 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Really the most menacing thing Ruafo does the first half of the movie is bleed on Picard's carpet. Leaving aside all the other plot holes, they really weren't that bad as far as Trek villains go. Oh there's the off screen stuff, but they seem to do everything they can to keep the Baku alive. First the holoship thing, then the tag beaming them out. It's only after Picard starts threatening his plans that he says screw em all, deploy the collector. Which his trusted lieutenant then rebels.

Really is too bad about all those Sona who won't survive the next ten years while the radiation heals them normally either. But mentioning that would get in the way of the generic happy ending.

DonIago September 24 2013 04:32 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
I suppose it's possible the Son'a lied to Dougherty and they actually can be rejuvenated via normal exposure...they just wanted a faster resolution.

Might be kind of cool if one or more Son'a joined Starfleet in the future and had to get past their species' reputation, though I suppose we've already seen variations on that theme.

sonak September 24 2013 07:06 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8685760)
Really the most menacing thing Ruafo does the first half of the movie is bleed on Picard's carpet. Leaving aside all the other plot holes, they really weren't that bad as far as Trek villains go. Oh there's the off screen stuff, but they seem to do everything they can to keep the Baku alive. First the holoship thing, then the tag beaming them out. It's only after Picard starts threatening his plans that he says screw em all, deploy the collector. Which his trusted lieutenant then rebels.

Really is too bad about all those Sona who won't survive the next ten years while the radiation heals them normally either. But mentioning that would get in the way of the generic happy ending.


the whole reason they had to add so much OFF screen villainy for them(they're drug smugglers! They're slavers! They're conquerors! etc.) is because ON screen they don't really do much that's villainous until the very end, and only after Picard has screwed the whole situation up.

Khan444 September 24 2013 08:05 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Insurrection made no freaking sense, its actually my most hated Star Trek movie. Picard and his crew act way out of character, directly contradicting their actions in a similar situation in the TV show. The people we're supposed to care about are a bunch of selfish self-righteous assholes who you hate. I knew how badly that this movie failed when I sympathized more with the "villains" than the "heroes." The fact that this was occurring at around the same time as the Dominion War over in DS9 made the Enterprise crew's actions even more idiotic.

T'Girl September 24 2013 08:11 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8684497)
Were the Son'a supposed to sympathetic or just evil ...

A bit of both, the Sona were the evil bastard who were going to provide the people of the federation with a wonderful omni-medical treatment.

Don't get me wrong, the Sona cared nothing for the huge number of people who would benefit from their actions, the Sona were basically thinking solely of themselves first, and a little revenge upon the families who cast them out second.

Inspite of that billions and billion of people across the federation would have had their lives inproved.

(Until Picard started making decisions for the entire federation all by himself)

:)

:)

Khan444 September 24 2013 08:54 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 8686609)
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8684497)
Were the Son'a supposed to sympathetic or just evil ...

A bit of both, the Sona were the evil bastard who were going to provide the people of the federation with a wonderful omni-medical treatment.

Don't get me wrong, the Sona cared nothing for the huge number of people who would benefit from their actions, the Sona were basically thinking solely of themselves first, and a little revenge upon the families who cast them out second.

Inspite of that billions and billion of people across the federation would have had their lives inproved.

(Until Picard started making decisions for the entire federation all by himself)

:)

:)

And that decision directly contradicts his actions in Journey's End.

sonak September 24 2013 09:47 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

Khan444 wrote: (Post 8686579)
Insurrection made no freaking sense, its actually my most hated Star Trek movie. Picard and his crew act way out of character, directly contradicting their actions in a similar situation in the TV show. The people we're supposed to care about are a bunch of selfish self-righteous assholes who you hate. I knew how badly that this movie failed when I sympathized more with the "villains" than the "heroes." The fact that this was occurring at around the same time as the Dominion War over in DS9 made the Enterprise crew's actions even more idiotic.


I like this post

The Overlord September 25 2013 03:21 AM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 8686609)
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8684497)
Were the Son'a supposed to sympathetic or just evil ...

A bit of both, the Sona were the evil bastard who were going to provide the people of the federation with a wonderful omni-medical treatment.

Don't get me wrong, the Sona cared nothing for the huge number of people who would benefit from their actions, the Sona were basically thinking solely of themselves first, and a little revenge upon the families who cast them out second.

Inspite of that billions and billion of people across the federation would have had their lives inproved.

(Until Picard started making decisions for the entire federation all by himself)

:)

:)

I think the "little bit of both" approach was the problem, the movie tried to make the Son'a vile, but ended up making them unintentionally sympathetic, so they end being completely bland and generic. They were not supposed to be sympathetic, but nothing about them was scary or menacing. Having their vilest deeds happen off screen did very little to make them menacing. They were just there. Either making them very intentionally sympathetic or making them very evil, would have been better.

Seriously Ru'afo barely did anything besides moan and complain during the film, he is one of the most forgettable villains in a Star Trek film.

T'Girl September 25 2013 11:45 AM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8688490)
so they end being completely bland and generic

One of the reasons I like Insurrection (more so than most) is that it is more complex than the average Trek movie, Who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are isn't as obvious as it would first seem. The plot isn't black and white.

The movie could have been made simplistic but it wasn't, straight forward things like who the planet belongs too could have been easy by making the Baku indigenous to the planet instead of interstellar immigrants.

Soon after the Baku figured out the planet's special properties, they could have used their warp ships to spread the word to the galaxy, they didn't.

What's the morality of moving several hundred people in order to help multiple billions?

Instead of spoon feeding the audience, we're allowed to pick sides on our own. based on our own thoughts and beliefs. I like that.

:)

CommishSleer September 25 2013 12:04 PM

Re: The Son'a
 
Quote:

T'Girl wrote: (Post 8689426)
Quote:

The Overlord wrote: (Post 8688490)
so they end being completely bland and generic

One of the reasons I like Insurrection (more so than most) is that it is more complex than the average Trek movie, Who the good guys are, and who the bad guys are isn't as obvious as it would first seem. The plot isn't black and white.

The movie could have been made simplistic but it wasn't, straight forward things like who the planet belongs too could have been easy by making the Baku indigenous to the planet instead of interstellar immigrants.

Soon after the Baku figured out the planet's special properties, they could have used their warp ships to spread the word to the galaxy, they didn't.

What's the morality of moving several hundred people in order to help multiple billions?

Instead of spoon feeding the audience, we're allowed to pick sides on our own. based on our own thoughts and beliefs. I like that.

:)

That would be OK except that Picard and crew seem to believe in the rightness of the Baku and how wonderful they were in their idealic paradise - wanting to come back and be some of the selective few allowed to share in eternal life.

I want my heroes to stand up for what is right. I don't want to have to go to the trouble to think for myself :lol:


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