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TrekToday September 17 2013 09:10 PM

Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Star Trek into Darkness Co-writer Alex Kurtzman defended some of the story decisions made when writing the movie, and looked ahead to the third movie. His defense comes after Roberto Orci‘s interaction with some fans, which caused Orci to close his Twitter account. One scene that made some fans unhappy was with the alternate version […]

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Santa Claus September 17 2013 11:05 PM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

Yanks September 17 2013 11:31 PM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
I don't think it's just the "extreme vocal internet minority". Go to Rotten Tomatoes and read the positive reviews. Most of them, while praising the movie ding the writers for rehashing old stuff.

lurok September 17 2013 11:41 PM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything...

Sad. But true...

Harbinger September 17 2013 11:50 PM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

Is it well liked by most traditional Star Trek fans? I keep hearing that a lot of "trekkies" (or "trekkers" or whatever) slammed it for its abundance of action and non-traditional approach.

I have yet to see Into Darkness. I loved the 2009 movie and I'm a fan of the series and all of the movies (except Search for Spock and Nemesis). Going to the blind buy the Blu-ray copy soon.

SeerSGB September 17 2013 11:50 PM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.

Yanks September 18 2013 12:54 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8659525)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.

Me too seer.

But they are getting "shit on" here because they "went where no trek writer should have gone".

They gave themselves a clean slate for storytelling and robbed one of, if not the most emotional iconic moment of all trek. (at least the movies).

I'll side with the faithful here.

Yanks September 18 2013 12:55 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

Harbinger wrote: (Post 8659522)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

Is it well liked by most traditional Star Trek fans? I keep hearing that a lot of "trekkies" (or "trekkers" or whatever) slammed it for its abundance of action and non-traditional approach.

I have yet to see Into Darkness. I loved the 2009 movie and I'm a fan of the series and all of the movies (except Search for Spock and Nemesis). Going to the blind buy the Blu-ray copy soon.

Hope you enjoy it!

SeerSGB September 18 2013 01:00 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

Yanks wrote: (Post 8659747)
Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8659525)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.

Me to seer.

But they are getting "shit on" here because they "went where no trek writer should have gone".

They gave themselves a clean slate for storytelling and robbed one of, if not the most emotional iconic moment of all trek. (at least the movies).

I'll side with the faithful here.

Thing, ever since TWOK Trek has been riding that them every chance they got. There must have been a well worn Cliff Notes copy of Moby Dick in the Star Trek writer's office back in the day.

Santa Claus September 18 2013 01:01 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

Yanks wrote: (Post 8659459)
I don't think it's just the "extreme vocal internet minority". Go to Rotten Tomatoes and read the positive reviews. Most of them, while praising the movie ding the writers for rehashing old stuff.

What was it they rehashed, though? Was TWOK a rehash of "Space Seed"? Of course, not. STiD is not a rehash of TWOK. If anything, it turns "Space Seed" on its ear, and does something new with it.

That said, I'm not talking the people who generally liked it, but had a few complaints, I'm talking the people Kurtzman is trying address: the rabid "fans" who push against the writers like they are evil incarnate; or the ones that slam J.J. and insult him in the worst way, or how they blast fans of the movie like they're intellectually stunted, or inferior. Those "fans" aren't healthy for any fandom, though they do exist in every fandom. I don't think Kurtzman or Orci should give them any airtime at all. They will hate him anyway, they will vehemently disagree with him anyway. To give them recognition is to give them validity in their own minds, and that will just make it worse.

Quote:

lurok wrote: (Post 8659486)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything...

Sad. But true...

I wish it weren't that way, but what can you do? Some people hate just to hate.

Quote:

Harbinger wrote: (Post 8659522)
Is it well liked by most traditional Star Trek fans? I keep hearing that a lot of "trekkies" (or "trekkers" or whatever) slammed it for its abundance of action and non-traditional approach.

I have yet to see Into Darkness. I loved the 2009 movie and I'm a fan of the series and all of the movies (except Search for Spock and Nemesis). Going to the blind buy the Blu-ray copy soon.

Now, that question can get sticky. What is a "traditional" fan? Is it someone who loves the original series? Is it someone who was a Trek fan from the beginning of the original show's run? What marks a "traditional" fan differently than a "non-traditional" fan, whatever that may also be?

Star Trek has always been filled with action. Look at First Contact, one of the most beloved Trek movies in the past 20 years. The Wrath of Khan was packed with action! Vengeance! Destruction! Old enemies meet to face off against one another in a battle of firepower among the stars!

Yes, STiD has action, almost at a frenetic pace, but that can be workable, so long as the director is capable, and J.J. is more than capable of making it work. I felt plenty of emotional, and intellectual arguments being made throughout the movie. That J.J. was able to cram so much into two hours and 12 minutes is nothing short of amazing to me. Look at TMP, a film of lethargic pacing. It did in 3 hours what could have been done in 15 minutes. It's considered cerebral, high concept and, whether you agree with that or not, boring. Hell, people called it The Motionless Picture.

For what it's worth, I enjoy TMP, but it lacks significant character moments (save for the end), and the pacing is glacial. It's a wonderful story of visuals, and high concept ideas, but the execution isn't the best, and I say that as a devotee of Robert Wise's work.

With that in mind, would I go into TMP and say "Robert Wise was an idiot! He killed the franchise! Only a moron would like TMP!" Of course not! I might talk about the pacing, I may remark how I do or do not like some moments in the film, but I'm there to discuss the film, not tear it to shreds and curse the livelihoods of the writers and director. To me that's an indication that one has lost a bit of grip on the chain of reality.

This is all just a more verbose way of saying that Trek fans who slam it for being mindless action are guilty of selective criticism. You apply that same label to their favorite Trek movie, and they'll shock, gasp, and immediately launch into a tirade about how you just don't see the bigger picture. We all do it, we all have our sacred cows, but that's because we all have our reasons for loving the movies that we do.

My least favorite film is Star Trek: Nemesis, and I could go on about why I don't like so many aspects of it, but I don't go into the movies forum and slam it at every opportunity. I don't mock Stuart Baird like he's a fool, because he's not. I didn't like his direction regarding the film, but I know he's a capable editor, and I doubt he's actually stupid. I've seen the films he's edited; I know better than to believe he's incompetent. I just didn't like how he directed Nemesis, and that should be respected, just as I respect those who don't like my favorite movies (I love TFF, for example, and I KNOW how maligned that film is).

Live and let live, I say. Granted, if I see someone say something I know is in error, I will act to correct it (for example, "Spock never showed emotion in the original series! This movie changed that!), but if it's just an opinion ("I don't like the lighting, it's too bright!"), then I'm fine with that.

I'm rambling now, so I'll go ahead and stop, should you have any questions, comments, whisky. I'll accept all three.

Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8659525)
This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.

I am embarrassed for the people who have to deal with it every day, and I always hope they don't think the majority of fans are like that.

M'Sharak September 18 2013 01:08 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

Harbinger wrote: (Post 8659522)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659375)
Honestly, he shouldn't have to defend anything. The film is a success, it's popular, it's well liked by most fans. The only reason he probably feels this way is because of an extreme vocal internet minority, who seem to hate anything that even evinces the prospect of change. Such fans tend to be implacable, so it's best to ignore them. Focus on what's good instead.

Is it well liked by most traditional Star Trek fans?

It is, yeah. Not everyone, of course, but many liked it.

Quote:

Harbinger wrote: (Post 8659522)
I keep hearing that a lot of "trekkies" (or "trekkers" or whatever) slammed it for its abundance of action and non-traditional approach.

And you'll probably keep hearing it for a while - that part's inescapable. Even some of those who generally liked it had criticisms concerning this or that aspect of the movie, but the Trekkies/Trekkers outright slamming Star Trek Into Darkness don't represent a very large fraction of the whole audience, or even of "traditional Star Trek fans," by any definition that term may have. (The poll pinned at the top of this forum is only one set of results, and shouldn't be taken as anything else, but you can see for yourself the picture it presents.)

Quote:

Harbinger wrote: (Post 8659522)
I have yet to see Into Darkness. I loved the 2009 movie and I'm a fan of the series and all of the movies (except Search for Spock and Nemesis). Going to the blind buy the Blu-ray copy soon.

Feel free to post your comments in the Grading & Discussion thread after you've had a chance to watch it. :techman:

Hober Mallow September 18 2013 01:09 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
I didn't like the film, but not because of the WoK scenes. In fact, I had no problem with the idea of the scenes, just the execution.

Yanks September 18 2013 01:09 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8659759)
Quote:

Yanks wrote: (Post 8659747)
Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8659525)

This ^ These people turned out a fun and profitable movie, and they get treated like crap for it.

There are times I'm embarrassed for our fandom the way the vocal minority has become the "face" of it.

Me to seer.

But they are getting "shit on" here because they "went where no trek writer should have gone".

They gave themselves a clean slate for storytelling and robbed one of, if not the most emotional iconic moment of all trek. (at least the movies).

I'll side with the faithful here.

Thing, ever since TWOK Trek has been riding that them every chance they got. There must have been a well worn Cliff Notes copy of Moby Dick in the Star Trek writer's office back in the day.

Glad they did. It's what made TWoK so good.

Good seeing you again bud. :bolian:

Yanks September 18 2013 01:19 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8659765)
Quote:

Yanks wrote: (Post 8659459)
I don't think it's just the "extreme vocal internet minority". Go to Rotten Tomatoes and read the positive reviews. Most of them, while praising the movie ding the writers for rehashing old stuff.

What was it they rehashed, though? Was TWOK a rehash of "Space Seed"? Of course, not. STiD is not a rehash of TWOK. If anything, it turns "Space Seed" on its ear, and does something new with it.

That said, I'm not talking the people who generally liked it, but had a few complaints, I'm talking the people Kurtzman is trying address: the rabid "fans" who push against the writers like they are evil incarnate; or the ones that slam J.J. and insult him in the worst way, or how they blast fans of the movie like they're intellectually stunted, or inferior. Those "fans" aren't healthy for any fandom, though they do exist in every fandom. I don't think Kurtzman or Orci should give them any airtime at all. They will hate him anyway, they will vehemently disagree with him anyway. To give them recognition is to give them validity in their own minds, and that will just make it worse.

STID is not a rehash of either. I don't mind that they found Khan on the Botany Bay.

What chapped my arse personally was the rip-off/reversal at the end of the movie and their butchering the Spock character.

I agree though, I've been on the message boards long enough to realize this fan base can be the worst for no reason at all. Remember the death threats because they were going to kill off Spock?

I think they know they screwed up here, or at least as evidenced by the article, feel they need to explain themselves.

Hober Mallow September 18 2013 01:19 AM

Re: Kurtzman Defends Star Trek Into Darkness
 
Quote:

With Star Trek into Darkness behind him, what will the third movie bring?



"At the end of the day, because we give so much thought to what the stories are going to be and how to tell them, it’s ultimately about what feels right.”
Evidently, the only thing that "feels right" after "so much thought" is "Evil Bad Guy from Another Time Out for Revenge," as we got that for two straight movies. Are they going to shoot for three straight films?


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