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-   -   Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=226153)

Agenda September 17 2013 01:57 AM

Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
There have been many defenses made of Spock's emotional displays in both STID and the 2009 film. Even if I agreed that these displays are fully justified given the plot, I wouldn't agree that this version of the character is nearly as interesting as the one we've come to know over the past 45+ years.

I guess one could argue that that Spock yelling, crying and screaming every movie is a "fresh" approach. But I don't think this is a character who needs a fresh approach. I think of many of the best episodes and movies of Trek and many of the best showings of the character, and in those appearances, he barely reveals any emotion - or if he does it's very subtly done.

Now, I don't object to Spock occasionally showing emotion. There were always those "exceptions" - those occasional episodes where he shows glimpses of emotion or goes all out. In fact, these were partly what made the character tantalizing over the years of his existence, partly because they reminded us about the parts of himself that he was always repressing. I also think these occurrences made him interesting because they were relatively rare.

But they're rare no longer. And I feel they've gone way overboard. They've turned these exceptions into almost the rule - in two movies in a row - and I just don't think it's a very interesting approach to the character in the least - even if it can be argued that the plot of the movie justifies it.

Makarov September 17 2013 02:13 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
I saw Zachary Quinto at comic con and he said something about Spock evolving into a more TOS non-emotional Spock over the course of these new movies. But really his emotional moments still feel rare to me.

J. Allen September 17 2013 02:24 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
"Billions of your race have died, including your mother."

"Indeed."

/end movie

CorporalClegg September 17 2013 02:29 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Old Spock cried in the first one. His female counterpart cried in the second one. He screamed in the third one. Laughed in the fourth one. And yelled and mentally raped someone in the sixth one.

austen_pierce September 17 2013 02:30 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Spock has had a rough couple of years. The loss of his mother, his home-world, then (briefly) his best friend, Kirk, just as he's beginning to understand the nature of their relationship.

It's warranted. Should they always go there? Maybe not as cranked up to 11 as this, but an emotional Spock, especially expressing his friendship to Kirk, is foundational. We lose this at the risk of losing part of the soul of Trek.

Khan444 September 17 2013 03:13 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
People act like Nimoy Spock never showed emotion, he did. The very fact that he was lifelong friends with Kirk and Bones is a show of emotion in an of itself. He had a sense of humor, he got angry, he could be romantic, he was an emotional being, no matter how much he tried not to be. Quinto's Spock is younger and less experienced, so of course he might be more emotional. He also saw his mother die right in front of him, his world crumble right in front of him, 99.9% of his race be wiped out, that affects a person and Nimoy's Spock didn't go through that when he was younger. In STID, he saw his friend die right in front of him. Both are great characters. If you notice, Nimoy Spock seems more openly emotional in the 2009 film in his scenes with Kirk/Young Spock. He even says that Spock should do what FEELS right. So maybe old Spock finally came to terms with his emotions and accepted them.

J. Allen September 17 2013 05:39 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Quote:

Khan444 wrote: (Post 8655895)
People act like Nimoy Spock never showed emotion, he did. The very fact that he was lifelong friends with Kirk and Bones is a show of emotion in an of itself. He had a sense of humor, he got angry, he could be romantic, he was an emotional being, no matter how much he tried not to be. Quinto's Spock is younger and less experienced, so of course he might be more emotional. He also saw his mother die right in front of him, his world crumble right in front of him, 99.9% of his race be wiped out, that affects a person and Nimoy's Spock didn't go through that when he was younger. In STID, he saw his friend die right in front of him. Both are great characters. If you notice, Nimoy Spock seems more openly emotional in the 2009 film in his scenes with Kirk/Young Spock. He even says that Spock should do what FEELS right. So maybe old Spock finally came to terms with his emotions and accepted them.

Agreed. You can see signs in the later movies, where Spock starts to express more emotion than he once did, especially after he had "died."

Peach Wookiee September 17 2013 05:42 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
I'd argue Spock Prime is telling his younger self what he wishes someone had said to him. And he's lived with the Romulans for a while too, so he's learned that emotion doesn't have to be destructive.

Awesome Possum September 17 2013 05:45 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
There's a great scene in Devil in the Dark where Spock thinks a mine has collapsed on Kirk and clearly gets upset that he might get hurt. First he's all serious and goes to running and yelling "Jim". I always liked that Spock always had a soft spot for his friends, especially Kirk.

Commishsleer September 17 2013 08:35 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
I know there are reasons for Spock's emotionalism in nuTrek but I still liked it better in TOS.

Sure Spock was plenty emotional in TOS. All that had to happen was Kirk get in danger or be angry with him. But it was more subtle over 79 episodes and so much more rewarding when you got to see it.

Sometimes when you see nuTrek Spock you just think its just inevitable he's going to go ballistic at some point. You never thought that about Nimoy Spock (except in Amok Time, This Side of Paradise, The Naked Time, Mirror Mirror - well OK quite a few times LOL)

J. Allen September 17 2013 08:38 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Quote:

CommishSleer wrote: (Post 8656711)
I know there are reasons for Spock's emotionalism in nuTrek but I still liked it better in TOS.

Sure Spock was plenty emotional in TOS. All that had to happen was Kirk get in danger or be angry with him. But it was more subtle over 79 episodes and so much more rewarding when you got to see it.

Sometimes when you see nuTrek Spock you just think its just inevitable he's going to go ballistic at some point. You never thought that about Nimoy Spock (except in Amok Time, This Side of Paradise, The Naked Time, Mirror Mirror - well OK quite a few times LOL)

Again, though, unique situation here. Nimoy's Spock never had to deal with the annihilation of his people, the obliteration of his home planet, or the death of his mother when he was much younger. All of this happened at once for Spock, and I think in the movies he's still sorting it all out.

King Daniel Into Darkness September 17 2013 10:35 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8655652)
"Billions of your race have died, including your mother."

"Indeed."

/end movie

:guffaw:

J. Allen September 17 2013 10:47 AM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8656885)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8655652)
"Billions of your race have died, including your mother."

"Indeed."

/end movie

:guffaw:

Thank you, sir. :D

The Wormhole September 17 2013 02:40 PM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
Spock has totally shown more emotion in these two movies than he ever did in TOS when he wasn't under alien influence. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, and so on but it has definitely gone too far. Having Spock cry during Kirk's death scene is certainly out of character. Hell, Kirk reacted more Vulcan like when Spock died in TWOK than Spock did when Kirk died in STID.

Peach Wookiee September 17 2013 03:34 PM

Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?
 
You forget, though, that in TOS his planet was still there, his mom was still alive and he was trying to be a perfect little Vulcan to please his father.


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