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AllStarEntprise September 2 2013 04:59 AM

How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Rewatching "The Name of the Doctor", and I still haven't figured out how Clara saves the Doctor. The Great Intelligence walks in to the Doctor's time stream and with his knowledge of the Doctor's life to turn all his victories in to defeats. Then Clara walks in after the GI and somehow her presence corrects everything. How? It's never explained and it doesn't make any sense. Did she just nullify the GI? If so how? Clara lost her memory when she was shattered in to millions of copies. The GI retained his.

Watching the two episodes that featured Clara before she became a companion proper; Asylum of the Daleks and The Snowmen. Clara's presence didn't thwart anything. Remove her from both episodes and there isn't much threat to the Doctor's life that she saves him from. The scenes with Clara edited in to clips of the Doctor's previous lives also don't affirm any contribution of her saving the Doctor.

The Mirrorball Man September 2 2013 05:23 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8587339)
Then Clara walks in after the GI and somehow her presence corrects everything. How? It's never explained and it doesn't make any sense.

It's not explained, it's shown: she saves the Doctor by warning him every time the Great Intelligence is about to threaten him.

Kelso September 2 2013 08:26 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
She doesn't. She yells his name a few times, but he doesn't hear her.

The Mirrorball Man September 2 2013 09:07 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

Kelso wrote: (Post 8587753)
She doesn't. She yells his name a few times, but he doesn't hear her.

The proof is in the pudding: the Doctor is still there, so she's been successful somehow.

Starkers September 2 2013 09:33 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8587339)
Rewatching "The Name of the Doctor", and I still haven't figured out how Clara saves the Doctor. The Great Intelligence walks in to the Doctor's time stream and with his knowledge of the Doctor's life to turn all his victories in to defeats. Then Clara walks in after the GI and somehow her presence corrects everything. How? It's never explained and it doesn't make any sense. Did she just nullify the GI? If so how? Clara lost her memory when she was shattered in to millions of copies. The GI retained his.

Watching the two episodes that featured Clara before she became a companion proper; Asylum of the Daleks and The Snowmen. Clara's presence didn't thwart anything. Remove her from both episodes and there isn't much threat to the Doctor's life that she saves him from. The scenes with Clara edited in to clips of the Doctor's previous lives also don't affirm any contribution of her saving the Doctor.

Er, didn't Clara wipe all memory of the Doctor from the Dalek archives in Asylum? That sounds pretty useful, also she was
providing assistance for the Doctor, Rory and Amy that kept them alive.


As for the Snowman, she saves the Doctor by getting him involved, if she hadn't the GI's plan would have been more likely to succeed, and either the Doctor wouldn't have got inovled, or might have got involved later when there was less time to resolve the matter.

As for why her memory is splintered whilst the GI retains his. Firstly what proof is there that the GI retains his anyway, and secondly are you really debating how a creature that's pure thought, hundreds, potentially thousands of years old, composed entirely of information can do something a normal young human female in her 20s can't?

The Doctor doesn't have to hear her, doesn't need to even see her, all she needs to do is trip up the GI on his way to foil the Doctor's plans!

AllStarEntprise September 2 2013 02:50 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

The Mirrorball Man wrote: (Post 8587390)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8587339)
Then Clara walks in after the GI and somehow her presence corrects everything. How? It's never explained and it doesn't make any sense.

It's not explained, it's shown: she saves the Doctor by warning him every time the Great Intelligence is about to threaten him.

See my issue is when you watch the episodes that show her inserted into. I find a hard time comprehending anything she could've done that effected the outcome of the adventure any differently if she had not been there.

With the 1st Doctor she tells to steal a defective TARDIS. Helpful yes, but I recall in one of the classic era episodes the Doctor saying he stole the specific TARDIS from a museum in some sort of premeditated plan. The episode the "Doctor's Wife" has the TARDIS corroborates the Doctor's story when she says she stole him. I'll search for the episode when the Doctor states his plan to steal a TARDIS later.

The clips of the 2nd and 3rd Doctor are of him running and driving from a teleporation spiral in the episode "The Five Doctors". His 2nd persona runs by Clara, but he is still captured by President Borusa. His 3rd persona drives by Clara and he sees her in his rear view mirror yelling his name but he is also captured by Borusa.

The 4th Doctor clip is of him on Galifrey during the episode "The Invasion of Time" part 2 of 6. The Doctor walks down a hallway and it is Leela not Clara who is pursuing him. The Sontaran invaders don't make an appearance till the very end of episode 4. So there is no immediate threat Clara is saving him from in episode 2. Also it was the Doctor's plan I seem to recall to let the Sontarans penetrate Galifrey's defenses and occupy it.

The clip with the 5th Doctor involved Clara looking at the Doctor while he was trapped in the Matrix of the Time Lords. This during "The Arc of Infinity" part 3 of 4. A place he was put into by a Omega after the Time Lord council tried to execute him. Again Clara does nothing to save the Doctor. It is Omega himself who frees the Doctor and returns hims to Gallifrey for his own ambitions.

The clip with the 6th Doctor has no episode from the Colin Baker era. All we see is Clara in the TARDIS and the 6th Doctor walking behind her.

The clip of the 7th Doctor from the episode "Dragonfire" again has Clara looking at the Doctor but not actually doing anything to help him. The 7th Doctor dangles off the side of a clip holding on to his umbrella. However it was Sabalom Glitz who comes to his rescue.

This link illustrates everything I just detailed out.
http://news.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/t...st-references/


Quote:

Starkers wrote: (Post 8587864)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8587339)
Rewatching "The Name of the Doctor", and I still haven't figured out how Clara saves the Doctor. The Great Intelligence walks in to the Doctor's time stream and with his knowledge of the Doctor's life to turn all his victories in to defeats. Then Clara walks in after the GI and somehow her presence corrects everything. How? It's never explained and it doesn't make any sense. Did she just nullify the GI? If so how? Clara lost her memory when she was shattered in to millions of copies. The GI retained his.

Watching the two episodes that featured Clara before she became a companion proper; Asylum of the Daleks and The Snowmen. Clara's presence didn't thwart anything. Remove her from both episodes and there isn't much threat to the Doctor's life that she saves him from. The scenes with Clara edited in to clips of the Doctor's previous lives also don't affirm any contribution of her saving the Doctor.

Er, didn't Clara wipe all memory of the Doctor from the Dalek archives in Asylum? That sounds pretty useful, also she was
providing assistance for the Doctor, Rory and Amy that kept them alive.


As for the Snowman, she saves the Doctor by getting him involved, if she hadn't the GI's plan would have been more likely to succeed, and either the Doctor wouldn't have got inovled, or might have got involved later when there was less time to resolve the matter.

With "Asylum of the Daleks" you have to think about why the Doctor was brought there in the first place. The Daleks wanted him to investigate the strange signal coming from the planet which was Clara "Oswin" Oswald. Yes she deletes all the information about the Doctor in the Dalek database. However if she was never there in the first place, the Doctor would not have been there, and his life wouldn't have been in danger while he was trying to rescue her. I'm not trivializing her act, but pointing out in this situation, she created own issue and resolution.

With "The Snowmen", Clara was instrumental in getting the Doctor to investigate the threat of the snow before it was too late. She didn't really save him from death. She saved him from his depression funk he had been in after losing Amy, Rory, and River. That counts for a lot I think.


Quote:

Starkers wrote: (Post 8587864)
As for why her memory is splintered whilst the GI retains his. Firstly what proof is there that the GI retains his anyway, and secondly are you really debating how a creature that's pure thought, hundreds, potentially thousands of years old, composed entirely of information can do something a normal young human female in her 20s can't?

The proof that the GI retained his memories is seen in the episode. Madame Vastra reports star systems are disappearing. Jenny vanishes presumbly dead since the Doctor once saved her life. Strax turns hostile like he doesn't know who Vastra is. The Doctor's act have been negated and or prevented by the GI's meddling in the Doctor timestream.

I'm not debating anything. I'm trying to ascertain how exactly Clara was able to right every wrong the GI imposed on the Doctor's timeline upon entering it. It's easy to digest the GI corrupting the Doctor's timeline with his vast knowledge and previous history with the Doctor spanning back to the Doctor's 2nd incarnation. All we see Clara do is walk into the Doctor's timestream and somehow that miraculously fixes everything.

The Mirrorball Man September 2 2013 04:00 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8588332)
See my issue is when you watch the episodes that show her inserted into. I find a hard time comprehending anything she could've done that effected the outcome of the adventure any differently if she had not been there.

It's because you haven't seen any of these episodes. The Great Intelligence altered the outcome of the adventures you're talking about, and Clara altered them back. What's so hard to understand about that?

Allyn Gibson September 2 2013 04:06 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8588332)
I'm trying to ascertain how exactly Clara was able to right every wrong the GI imposed on the Doctor's timeline upon entering it. It's easy to digest the GI corrupting the Doctor's timeline with his vast knowledge and previous history with the Doctor spanning back to the Doctor's 2nd incarnation. All we see Clara do is walk into the Doctor's timestream and somehow that miraculously fixes everything.

How did flying the Pandorica into the burning TARDIS cause the Doctor to close the cracks in the universe? Clara saving the Doctor throughout his timeline is the same problem. We see characters do something, we're told that what they do is important, but we don't understand how what they do achieves what we're told. It's the way Moffat's Who works -- it's magic. *shrug*

Starkers September 2 2013 04:27 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

Allyn Gibson wrote: (Post 8588569)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8588332)
I'm trying to ascertain how exactly Clara was able to right every wrong the GI imposed on the Doctor's timeline upon entering it. It's easy to digest the GI corrupting the Doctor's timeline with his vast knowledge and previous history with the Doctor spanning back to the Doctor's 2nd incarnation. All we see Clara do is walk into the Doctor's timestream and somehow that miraculously fixes everything.

How did flying the Pandorica into the burning TARDIS cause the Doctor to close the cracks in the universe? Clara saving the Doctor throughout his timeline is the same problem. We see characters do something, we're told that what they do is important, but we don't understand how what they do achieves what we're told. It's the way Moffat's Who works -- it's magic. *shrug*

He's not exactly alone in that though, is he?

"Well we'll twiddle some knobs and all the Daleks will dance around and explode..."

AllStarEntprise, you realise of course that the producers of the TV show were restricted to clips of actual episodes, they couldn't really film any new footage short of using people dressed as the doctor but not seen full frontal (oor er missus) which isn't as effective.

It's a TV show, they worked with what they had :shrug:

MacLeod September 2 2013 04:39 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
The problem with explaining things, is that you will likely dissapoint some or all of your aduaince. So sometimes it's best not to give an explation at all. Simply that somehow she interfers with the GI.

danellis September 2 2013 09:38 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8588332)
The 4th Doctor clip is of him on Galifrey during the episode "The Invasion of Time" part 2 of 6. The Doctor walks down a hallway and it is Leela not Clara who is pursuing him. The Sontaran invaders don't make an appearance till the very end of episode 4. So there is no immediate threat Clara is saving him from in episode 2. Also it was the Doctor's plan I seem to recall to let the Sontarans penetrate Galifrey's defenses and occupy it.

My understanding of it was that she wasn't involved in what happened in the episode shown but that the GI instituted something new which she deflected/diverted/stopped, often without the Doctor even knowing there was anything going on.

The episode of Doctor Who went on exactly the same with or without the Great Intelligence or Clara, but there's an "Adventures of Clara" episode going on at the same time.

dJE

RoJoHen September 2 2013 10:03 PM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Just because Clara was splintered across the Doctor's timeline doesn't mean she necessarily participated in every adventure or saved his life EVERY TIME. What she did was follow the Great Intelligence around and prevent him from altering the original outcomes of the Doctor's life. I can imagine there were plenty of versions of Clara that just lived and died without really having an impact on the Doctor whatsoever.

Lonemagpie September 3 2013 12:34 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
TBH I thought she essentially telefragged the GI, by being transported to all the moments where it had just been transported to, and taking its place...

AllStarEntprise September 3 2013 02:02 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

Lonemagpie wrote: (Post 8590528)
TBH I thought she essentially telefragged the GI, by being transported to all the moments where it had just been transported to, and taking its place...

^ That is the best theory I've read on this and other sites about what happened. That Clara walking into the Doctor's timestream supplanted the GI and all the effects he brought on the universe. Clara being benevolent and harmless didn't interfere with the Doctor's on his adventures across the time and space. Clara is a vaccine to the GI's poison effects on the Doctor's life. I suppose you could infer that only one consciousness can exist simultaneously inside another person's timestream. I can buy that.

AllStarEntprise September 3 2013 02:20 AM

Re: How exactly did Clara "save" the Doctor.
 
Quote:

Starkers wrote: (Post 8588647)
Quote:

Allyn Gibson wrote: (Post 8588569)
Quote:

AllStarEntprise wrote: (Post 8588332)
I'm trying to ascertain how exactly Clara was able to right every wrong the GI imposed on the Doctor's timeline upon entering it. It's easy to digest the GI corrupting the Doctor's timeline with his vast knowledge and previous history with the Doctor spanning back to the Doctor's 2nd incarnation. All we see Clara do is walk into the Doctor's timestream and somehow that miraculously fixes everything.

How did flying the Pandorica into the burning TARDIS cause the Doctor to close the cracks in the universe? Clara saving the Doctor throughout his timeline is the same problem. We see characters do something, we're told that what they do is important, but we don't understand how what they do achieves what we're told. It's the way Moffat's Who works -- it's magic. *shrug*

He's not exactly alone in that though, is he?

"Well we'll twiddle some knobs and all the Daleks will dance around and explode..."

AllStarEntprise, you realise of course that the producers of the TV show were restricted to clips of actual episodes, they couldn't really film any new footage short of using people dressed as the doctor but not seen full frontal (oor er missus) which isn't as effective.

It's a TV show, they worked with what they had :shrug:


With the Pandorica 'fixing' the universe, I can swallow that because of exposition in the episode explains that the light from the Pandorica can restore things. Also that the Pandorica has a copy of what the universe was before the TARDIS exploding all across space and time destroyed it. I admit it's a stretch but I buy it.


With regards to "Journey's End" and the control panel for every Dalek making them spin around, lose weapons and ultimately explode. I think we the audience are supposed to take it for what it is. An implausible solution to an impossible situation. If the Daleks and Davros were stupid enough to build a device that implausible, you can be surprised the Doctor's and DoctorDonna used it to destroy the millions of Daleks in such an implausible way.


I have no problem with Clara being superimposed in to scenes of past episodes. My issue is what effect does her presence contribute to those situations. If the episodes/adventures can work without Clara's contributions then why show her in them?


I realize Doctor Who does not play by the strictest rule set when it comes to the mechanics of the show and how things work in it's universe. The rules are constantly written and rewritten in the show, from era to era and showrunner to showrunner. Such as the Jonathan Nathan Turner, Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat all ran the show differently with different rules set in-universe. You really are not suppose to question things, and if you tried to create a linear explanation for every single event in Doctor Who you would go mad. I would just like for there to be a little bit more clarity when the show is being vague about a colossal event.


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