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-   -   Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=224449)

Lighthammer September 1 2013 06:09 AM

Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
You know, I just got to wondering --- there are a number of episodes where Janeway is really gun on AI rights (especially where the Doctor is concerned) and other episodes where she all but rails against AIs having any rights.

Why is she so fickle over this? Is this just really bad writing for the character?

Dr. Sevrin September 1 2013 06:23 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Yeah, it's like different people keep putting words into her mouth.

Writers change, story editors change, and they all have their own take on every character. The actors can argue about stuff they don't agree if they think it's out of character, but those arguments can be ignored by everyone else.

R. Star September 1 2013 08:52 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"

SJSharksfan39 September 1 2013 08:59 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
^The interesting thing about that is isn't that what the Kazon did. I mean the Herogin didn't strand the voyager crew on a baron planet so maybe that was the difference.

R. Star September 1 2013 09:05 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Well Janeway said she'd destroy the ship a few episodes before the stranding. The only difference is the Kazon were too dumb to even operate the replicator without Seska's help... whereas the Hirogen, were at least slightly smarter.

Dr. Sevrin September 1 2013 02:46 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Seska should have just slit Cullah's throat and taken over.

R. Star September 1 2013 05:38 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Seska can't individually seduce the whole race. That's all it was too since females technically had no standing among Kazon.

Yuckleberry Finn September 1 2013 07:24 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

tomalak301 wrote: (Post 8583616)
^The interesting thing about that is isn't that what the Kazon did. I mean the Herogin didn't strand the voyager crew on a baron planet so maybe that was the difference.


Except Janeway made the replicator remark early on, well before the events of Basics, and Kazon hadn't treated them any worse than the Hirogen up to that point unless you count spreading rumors about Voyager being a death ship.

Bry_Sinclair September 1 2013 07:38 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Inconsistent character development on VOY? I am shocked. Shocked I tell you :lol:

The series suffered for poor character development and writing, so hardly surprising. Plus its a subject that has no real importance. Data deserved equal rights and status since he is so complex and unique (with the exception of Lore that is), but holograms simply aren't. They're tools, nothing more and trying to make it an issue was just dull and unoriginal.

propita September 2 2013 12:08 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8583400)
Yeah, it's like different people keep putting words into her mouth.

Writers change, story editors change, and they all have their own take on every character. The actors can argue about stuff they don't agree if they think it's out of character, but those arguments can be ignored by everyone else.

TITCR

The studio didn't want consistency, they wanted individual episodes, and whatever made that particular story okay was what they wanted. They didn't care about the characters, or even about the fans.

What the studio did to Voyager as a show with this attitude would not fly with many shows anymore.

I feel bad for the actors who wanted more, I mean everyone runs into crap like this on a job, but ours aren't so public. We have our frustrations in private, these people have them out there for everyone to see and criticize without having the full facts.

JirinPanthosa September 2 2013 04:36 AM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
I think the Doctor had the same argument Data did. Not at the beginning when he was first activated, but after he'd been running for a while and his program had been rewriting itself on its own for a while. By the end of the series it's hard to make an argument for Data that doesn't apply to the Doctor.

Back in the Kazon arc they were still trying to carry the show with a consistent theme. By the time the Hirogen came around it was all about what they needed for the story they were telling at the time.

Queen Arachnia September 2 2013 09:35 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8583607)
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"

I love Janeway, but I believe she did go against Starfleet protocol by "giving away" their holo-technology to the Hirogen just so they would stop doing what their species had already been doing for hundreds or thousands of years.

That said...if it stopped the Hirogen from killing everyone in their path, then I suppose holograms are a better alternative. Too bad they made the holograms so advanced that they became stronger and more cunning than the actual Hirogen. -_-

THAT said...I do believe that someone as sentient as the Doctor should be given somewhat equal rights. Where the line is drawn is a tricky one.

KaraBear September 3 2013 03:40 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8583607)
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"

I don't think this is a fair comparison.

giving the Kazon a replicator would alter the balance of power, it would make that sect more powerful than the others.

giving the hirogen the holotechnology wouldn't change any balance of power. Also the hirogen had been examining and learning about the technology for weeks, they had a good understanding of how it worked and would probably have been able to come up with their own eventually anyway

KaraBear September 3 2013 03:42 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

Captain Kathryn wrote: (Post 8589865)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8583607)
Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

"I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

later...

"Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"

I love Janeway, but I believe she did go against Starfleet protocol by "giving away" their holo-technology to the Hirogen just so they would stop doing what their species had already been doing for hundreds or thousands of years.

That said...if it stopped the Hirogen from killing everyone in their path, then I suppose holograms are a better alternative. Too bad they made the holograms so advanced that they became stronger and more cunning than the actual Hirogen. -_-

THAT said...I do believe that someone as sentient as the Doctor should be given somewhat equal rights. Where the line is drawn is a tricky one.

the tricky thing is that is he really sentient or is it all just a matter of programming. Take away a few lines of code and he can no longer sing. Take away a few lines of code and he can't speak, take away a few lines of code and his whole personality is changed

The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?

Bad Thoughts September 3 2013 03:54 PM

Re: Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?
 
Quote:

KaraBear wrote: (Post 8592685)
The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?

Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).


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