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-   -   General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=224323)

JT Perfecthair August 30 2013 09:32 PM

General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
In Tase of Armageddon we see Kirk yell at Scott over an open communicator to prepare for General Order 24. Later we hear Scott say that the entire inhabited surface of Eminiar 7 would be destroyed. Would they have done so? Apart from the moral and political implications of such an act, does the Enterprise really have enough phaser coolant for that? Or would they have taken their time, exterminate everybody over a few days?

There are times such as this episode or watching Kirks behaviour towards Professor Crater where a person not familiar with the show might have some trouble knowing who the "good" guys actually are.

Melakon August 30 2013 09:57 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
I didn't interpret General Order 24 as some sort of Death Star weapon. But it only took the Enterprise 15 minutes to identify all potential targets, so Scott seemed prepared to carry out the order if the hostages weren't released.

The Eminians had previously destroyed a starship, had attacked the Enterprise, and two landing parties (including Fox and his flunky) were being threatened with execution if the Enterprise didn't surrender. Normal diplomatic negotiations had failed. Kirk was out of options, until one presented itself just in the nick of time.

Mysterion August 30 2013 10:26 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
I've never had the impression that Kirk and scott were bluffing, and believe that Scott would have indeed carried out Kirk's order if required.

Melakon August 30 2013 11:25 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
One thing that didn't make sense to me was how did Ambassador Fox beam down if the shields were up? Did he bully the hapless transporter officer like he tried to do with Scott? And why didn't the bridge notice that a transport was in progress?

jpv2000 August 30 2013 11:38 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Mysterion wrote: (Post 8578522)
I've never had the impression that Kirk and scott were bluffing, and believe that Scott would have indeed carried out Kirk's order if required.

Same here.

Nerys Myk August 30 2013 11:43 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Didn't Garth use that order to try and kill the Antosians?

Mysterion August 30 2013 11:47 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 8578855)
Didn't Garth use that order to try and kill the Antosians?

That sounds correct.

You know, the existence of General Order 24, and the capability of Constitution class starships to lay waste to an entire planet call into question the whole "we're just peaceful explorers" mantra of Starfleet, doesn't it?

Nerys Myk August 30 2013 11:50 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Speak softly and carry a big stick. That's the motto of the Starship Teddy Roosevelt. ;)

Mysterion August 30 2013 11:52 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
^^^
Got no problem with that at all. Just think that Starfleet and Gene Roddenberry needed to be a bit more honest with themselves.

Melakon August 30 2013 11:54 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Mysterion wrote: (Post 8578867)
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 8578855)
Didn't Garth use that order to try and kill the Antosians?

That sounds correct.

You know, the existence of General Order 24, and the capability of Constitution class starships to lay waste to an entire planet call into question the whole "we're just peaceful explorers" mantra of Starfleet, doesn't it?

In the Memory Alpha article regarding General Orders, they add this note:
Quote:

Garth may have explained the spirit of the order when he suggested he gave the order because, "I could say they were actively hostile towards the Federation".

Nerys Myk August 30 2013 11:58 PM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Mysterion wrote: (Post 8578888)
^^^
Got no problem with that at all. Just think that Starfleet and Gene Roddenberry needed to be a bit more honest with themselves.

It's Archer's fault. Dude pissed of a lot of people.

I think TOS Gene was pretty honest. TNG Gene, not so much.

Push The Button August 31 2013 03:13 AM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Mysterion wrote: (Post 8578522)
I've never had the impression that Kirk and scott were bluffing, and believe that Scott would have indeed carried out Kirk's order if required.

Along with Picard's "Let's make sure..." speech in Yesterday's Enterprise, this still gives me chills when I hear it:

"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In one hour and forty-five minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

For all the great Kirk and Spock scenes that take place on the planet in this episode (and there were many), this was Scotty's finest hour. I have no doubt that Eminiar Seven would have been turned into glass, as ordered and on schedule.

BillJ August 31 2013 03:33 AM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

Nerys Myk wrote: (Post 8578918)

I think TOS Gene was pretty honest. TNG Gene, not so much.

It's what happens when you do too many drugs and buy into your own hype.

CommishSleer August 31 2013 08:05 AM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
While I agree that Scott and Kirk didn't seem like they were bluffing I can't see Scotty just wiping out an entire half-planet of whatever they could of the major planetary cities in range without Kirk's reconfirmation or Spock's.

Scott will understand that Kirk is the King of the Bluffs and may be going along withe the bluff. After all Scott would only need wipe out a couple of cities for them to pay attention.

However Kirk was considering killing all the Denevians so he obviously has the authority to carry out mass murder. At this episode in TOS maybe Kirk has to show that the Federation is not to be missed with.

Melakon August 31 2013 08:13 AM

Re: General order 24, were Kir kand Scotty bluffing?
 
Quote:

CommishSleer wrote: (Post 8580082)
While I agree that Scott and Kirk didn't seem like they were bluffing I can't see Scotty just wiping out an entire half-planet of whatever they could of the major planetary cities in range without Kirk's reconfirmation or Spock's.

He won't launch an attack without later reconfirmation? If the Eminians kill the hostages in 30 minutes as promised, there would be no confirmation.


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