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-   -   So is [SPOILER] really a copy? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=223549)

Kruezerman August 23 2013 07:29 PM

So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
I've been hearing all that the death scene in Into Darkness is a blatant ripoff/ copy paste/rape of my childhood of The Wrath of Khan scene. Now, here's some words before the videos, I prefer the WOK scene because I have more connection with Shatner and Nimoy, I've known them before I knew Pine and Quinto. There are indeed similarities, obviously, because they were going for a re-imagining of that iconic scene (and in my opinion, they did it fantastically) and there is nothing wrong with that in any way. Because as we know in literature and film and music and entertainment in general, some of the best things are people taking an idea and making their own. People harp about being "original" but in reality it's almost impossible.

So anyway, for your viewing and critical pleasure, here are the two videos:

Quote:

TWOK

Quote:

ID

EDIT: Is there a way to change the thread title?

SalvorHardin August 23 2013 08:22 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
The only thing I don't really like about it is the Khan scream. Other than that I have no issue and I think it was an excellent scene.

DonIago August 23 2013 08:43 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
I thought it was well-done myself. The scream was a bit unnecessary and OTT, but...well...if you're going to do that kind of homage I suppose you might as well go for broke. :p

Cinema Geekly August 23 2013 09:04 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
I thought the scream was excellent! The only reason people dislike it is because the original was flat out 1980's scream-the-bad-guys-name silliness that ended up becoming an uber parody, and in a lot of circles that aren't Trek related; became the thing Shatner was known for.

Personally I think it was a bold choice, I think it fit perfectly within the sphere of Spock's character arc from the first movie to this point, and the way they did the hard cut to the Vengeance tumbling down past the Enterprise made it one of my favorite moments of the film.

Sadly because of the original, people are probably never going to be able to see it in that light, and only see it as they see the Shatner version. Personally I think the writers made that goofiness work.

serenitytrek1 August 23 2013 09:41 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
less is more.

keep the glass hand scene and take away the khan screen

or

keep the khan scream and take away the glass hand scene

you cant have both. when you have both it comes of as a rip off.

CorporalClegg August 23 2013 09:47 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
I loved the scream in itself, I just think it was in the wrong place. I understand it had to be there to complete the parallelism, but I think for that particular scene the "No..." would have been better.

That said, I don't know where else they'd would have put it.

M'Sharak August 23 2013 10:08 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
Quote:

Kruezerman wrote: (Post 8546692)
EDIT: Is there a way to change the thread title?

What change did you have in mind?

BillJ August 23 2013 10:26 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
This scene scared me when I first heard about it. Though I thought they did a great job pulling it off.

But yes, the two scenes are similar.

King Daniel Into Darkness August 23 2013 10:53 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
Similar? Yes. A word-for-word rip off with the lines switched? No. But the same people in a similar situation will likely say similar things.

Wrath of Khan
SPOCK: The ship... out of danger?

KIRK: Yes.

Into Darkness
KIRK: How's our ship?

SPOCK: Out of danger.

I think Scotty saying McCoy's exact "You'd better get down here... better hurry" at the start was a little too much. Although the bit about not opening the door for fear of flooding the compartment with radiation sounds like they're both quoting from a safety manual, which any crewman would know by heart.

I think the new scene works wonderfully on several levels - as a touching scene, the resolution of Spock's story arc, and as an alternate universe version of one of Trek's most famous moments for longtime fans. It seems that, along with the Enterprise-D's warp core being breached by a Klingon Bird-of-Prey in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and Star Trek: Generations and Kes or Seven scanning that Krenim torpedo lodged in the Jeffries' Tube in "Before and After"/"Year of Hell", somone was gonna die in engineering in an epic encounter with Khan, whatever the timeline.


You know what bugs me about the Into Darkness scene? I caught it on my second viewing and can't unsee: Spock's hand, when Kirk's falls in close-up it's doing the Vulcan salute against the glass, and they cut to another angle with his fingers widely spread. Annoying!

serenitytrek1 August 23 2013 10:53 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
Quote:

[serenitytrek, please do not again quote a lengthy post merely as an excuse to call attention to a YouTube comments thread which seems to consist largely of you and your pal "trekfreek" arguing with people. Your post below had zero relevance, either to the post you quoted or to the topic of this thread.- M']
I find the JJ raped my childhood comments so over the top.

Set Harth August 23 2013 11:32 PM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
They should have killed Kirk for good. That would at least have been boldly going into the unknown. The problem is that we already know what happens to the reputation of a film when it kills Kirk. Thus, Kirk gets the magic reset button previously denied to the timeline itself.

CorporalClegg August 24 2013 12:35 AM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
Quote:

Set Harth wrote: (Post 8548285)
They should have killed Kirk for good. That would at least have been boldly going into the unknown. The problem is that we already know what happens to the reputation of a film when it kills Kirk. Thus, Kirk gets the magic reset button previously denied to the timeline itself.

I don't know. I think Generations' reputation has less to do with the death itself as it does the shitty way it was executed.

I think making Kirk's death permanent would have been better. And it would have been the natural escalation to blowing up Vulcan.

The Wormhole August 24 2013 01:51 AM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
I actually enjoyed STID for the most part, but Kirk's death scene being a blatant remake of Spock's is one thing I really can't stand. That entire scene just pulled me out of the movie completely, had me thinking "Seriously? We're doing this?" Hell, I know a guy in RL who practically is an Abrams gusher who feels that scene ruined the movie completely.

The scene lacks any kind of real emotional resonance because it leave the fans thinking of the far superior version of the scene they've already seen. And really, taking one of Trek's most memorable scenes and watering it down for cheap dramatic value, how low is that?

DonIago August 24 2013 02:34 AM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
While I don't think it was up to the standards of TWoK, when I realized what was coming I expected to find it hokey and...awful. IMO, it was neither. In fact, if they were going to go in that direction I think they handled it as well as they possibly could have...though I'll throw in the caveat of, "given the scope of what these films have been thus far."

Kruezerman August 24 2013 03:02 AM

Re: So is [SPOILER] really a copy?
 
Quote:

M'Sharak wrote: (Post 8547679)
Quote:

Kruezerman wrote: (Post 8546692)
EDIT: Is there a way to change the thread title?

What change did you have in mind?

"So is [SPOILER] really a copy?"


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