The Trek BBS

The Trek BBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/index.php)
-   Star Trek Movies XI+ (http://www.trekbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?f=50)
-   -   "You should have heard him defend you.." - really?? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=223513)

StarTrek1701 August 23 2013 08:32 AM

"You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
A guy that singlehandedly saved Earth.

And by proxy, every other Federation planet from a terrorist from the fucking future. A terrorist that took out the most powerful member planet of the UFP.

The terrorist that made his way to Earth and crippled all other ships by activating their defense grid prefix codes.

And he is to be demoted and sent back to the academy because some facepainted rolled up poster worshipping natives saw "a starship rising out of their oceans!".

Then later, Admiral Robocop has the gall to tell Kirk that Pike was defending him. Whoa! If anything, the UFP + the Feds + every Federation member sentient species should be beholding Kirk to the highest of honors.

Don't mind me. Just that particular aspect of STID really buggered me.

Kirk's a fucking hero and savior of the Feds. Show some fucking respect!

ComicGuy89 August 23 2013 09:18 AM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Daily business for Starfleet in both realities, actually, and I agree, their stickling for rules is one of their more annoying aspects. Still, most of their officers are willing to find some loophole, and Pike's in this case is to reinstate Kirk to at least be his XO.

At any rate I think Pike was angrier at Kirk's recklessness and lack of humility than the actual breaking of rules.

Timo August 23 2013 08:43 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Also, Kirk saved squat. It was Spock who did all the actual saving. And he didn't even get promoted!

Timo Saloniemi

-Brett- August 23 2013 09:03 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
They showed Kirk plenty of respect. They promoted him by several grades and gave him command of one of their newest ships. Not their fault that he blew it.

I tend to think it was less breaking the rules than it was lying about it that got Kirk in trouble. Rightly so. Had Kirk manned up to it, he probably would have gotten off with a lecture. Instead he proved that he wasn't a man, but a teenage boy who feels no responsibility to anyone or anything. The events of the previous movie were probably the difference between being demoted and being kicked out completely.

OneBuckFilms August 23 2013 11:52 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
I do buy it, because although Kirk and crew did a great job stopping Nero, he was largely insubbordinate, flippant, and frankly he did not seem to respect the chair as Pike put it.

He should never have been down there endangering spock's life in the first place, and though morally it was the right thing, he did alter the natural development of the Nibiru native population, and broke Starfleet's #1 directive of not interference.

Kirk's journey in the film was about him attaining the wisdom he needed to be in command.

It also addressed his meteoric rise from Stowaway cadet on academic suspention to captain of the Federation flag ship.

BillJ August 24 2013 12:31 AM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

OneBuckFilms wrote: (Post 8548390)

He should never have been down there endangering spock's life in the first place, and though morally it was the right thing, he did alter the natural development of the Nibiru native population, and broke Starfleet's #1 directive of not interference.

There is no further development period without the interference.

Crazy Eddie August 24 2013 05:00 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

StarTrek1701 wrote: (Post 8544517)
A guy that singlehandedly saved Earth.

And by proxy, every other Federation planet from a terrorist from the fucking future. A terrorist that took out the most powerful member planet of the UFP.

The terrorist that made his way to Earth and crippled all other ships by activating their defense grid prefix codes.

And he is to be demoted and sent back to the academy because some facepainted rolled up poster worshipping natives saw "a starship rising out of their oceans!".

Then later, Admiral Robocop has the gall to tell Kirk that Pike was defending him. Whoa! If anything, the UFP + the Feds + every Federation member sentient species should be beholding Kirk to the highest of honors.

Don't mind me. Just that particular aspect of STID really buggered me.

Kirk's a fucking hero and savior of the Feds. Show some fucking respect!

They didn't bust him for violating the Prime Directive.

They busted him for lying about it on his reports. Hero or not, that's a BIG time no-no.

Hartzilla2007 August 24 2013 05:08 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

-Brett- wrote: (Post 8547163)
I tend to think it was less breaking the rules than it was lying about it that got Kirk in trouble. Rightly so. Had Kirk manned up to it, he probably would have gotten off with a lecture. Instead he proved that he wasn't a man, but a teenage boy who feels no responsibility to anyone or anything. The events of the previous movie were probably the difference between being demoted and being kicked out completely.

This of course assumes Prime Kirk didn't lie in his reports everytime he broke the Prime Directive.

SeerSGB August 24 2013 07:32 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Kirk probably had a bullseye on his back from day after the Nero attacks. He jumped up the ladder, got command of the Enterprise, and was basically acting like he could do no wrong. It would be very likely that there's be senior officer or fellow captains lined up around the block to bust his nuts if they could get the dirt on him to do it.

JarodRussell August 24 2013 08:09 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

StarTrek1701 wrote: (Post 8544517)
A guy that singlehandedly saved Earth.

And by proxy, every other Federation planet from a terrorist from the fucking future. A terrorist that took out the most powerful member planet of the UFP.

The terrorist that made his way to Earth and crippled all other ships by activating their defense grid prefix codes.

And he is to be demoted and sent back to the academy because some facepainted rolled up poster worshipping natives saw "a starship rising out of their oceans!".

Then later, Admiral Robocop has the gall to tell Kirk that Pike was defending him. Whoa! If anything, the UFP + the Feds + every Federation member sentient species should be beholding Kirk to the highest of honors.

Don't mind me. Just that particular aspect of STID really buggered me.

Kirk's a fucking hero and savior of the Feds. Show some fucking respect!

Ok, let's say you save a couple of people from a burning house. Does that make you an experienced fire fighter? Should everyone just bow before you and hand you everything for free?

Stopping a bad guy doesn't say anything about his command abilities. An incident where he violates the a major directive, doesn't care and even lies about it, does.

Hartzilla2007 August 24 2013 08:30 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

SeerSGB wrote: (Post 8551303)
He jumped up the ladder, got command of the Enterprise, and was basically acting like he could do no wrong.

So Kirk was acting like a typical Starfleet captain basically.

Quote:

JarodRussell wrote: (Post 8551423)
Stopping a bad guy doesn't say anything about his command abilities. An incident where he violates the a major directive, doesn't care and even lies about it, does.

So the problem here is basically that he's James T. Kirk.

Or are you seriously going to tell me that Kirk never broke the rules.

As for the lying in a report thing, didn't Janeway once make it sound like Kirk had a habit of fudging the details in his reports.

BritishSeaPower August 24 2013 08:42 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
I found the "You've been demoted back to the academy. Oh, wait, I went and defended you offscreen and now you're just demoted to First Officer" thing odd. Kirk never really suffers from that demotion, except hanging around in the bar, and it struck me as an odd punishment, even for fabricating a report. It wasn't "You're cashiered out of the service," but rather "Go back to school!" The double demotion seemed like a hold over from a previous version of the script that was downplayed until it becomes a five minute exchange that ultimately has little bearing on the plot of the film.

JarodRussell August 24 2013 08:42 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

Hartzilla2007 wrote: (Post 8551489)
So the problem here is basically that he's James T. Kirk.

Or are you seriously going to tell me that Kirk never broke the rules.

As for the lying in a report thing, didn't Janeway once make it sound like Kirk had a habit of fudging the details in his reports.

Well the confusion of reality and fiction is one problem of these films. "He is James T. Kirk, he just HAS to be Captain of the Enterprise."

Franchise demands put over logical character development.

Hartzilla2007 August 24 2013 09:07 PM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

JarodRussell wrote: (Post 8551546)
Quote:

Hartzilla2007 wrote: (Post 8551489)
So the problem here is basically that he's James T. Kirk.

Or are you seriously going to tell me that Kirk never broke the rules.

As for the lying in a report thing, didn't Janeway once make it sound like Kirk had a habit of fudging the details in his reports.

Well the confusion of reality and fiction is one problem of these films. "He is James T. Kirk, he just HAS to be Captain of the Enterprise."

So basically your problem boils down to them doing something that isn't realistic aka business as usual in a Star Trek production.

I mean they had a fraking magic torpedo that made planets for God's sake.

And your telling me Kirk getting a three-step promotion from lieutenant to captain for saving the capital of the federation from a mad terrorist with a WMD never mind stopping him from taking out the rest of the federation breaks your suspension of disbelief

And the main reason for this is that he acts like SLIGHTLY more of a jerk than usual.

Quote:

Franchise demands put over logical character development.
When the frak has Star Trek ever had logical character development?

MarsWeeps August 25 2013 04:21 AM

Re: "You should have heard him defend you.." - really??
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8548552)
Quote:

OneBuckFilms wrote: (Post 8548390)

He should never have been down there endangering spock's life in the first place, and though morally it was the right thing, he did alter the natural development of the Nibiru native population, and broke Starfleet's #1 directive of not interference.

There is no further development period without the interference.

Yeah, Spock's preaching to Kirk about violating the prime directive made no sense, because Spock was doing the same thing by stopping the volcano!!

Like Pike said, they were there to OBSERVE.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.