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ajac09 August 21 2013 01:44 PM

TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
So when did they decide that they dont have anything to do with species without warp capability? Because in TNG there is at least one episode they are helping a species with only sub-light capability aka The Outrageous Okona any other episodes you can think of?

jazzstick August 21 2013 01:51 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Well...

There's "Who Watches The Watchers", but that was by accident I guess?


All Hail The Picard™!!!

Timelord Victorious August 21 2013 02:34 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Rule of thumb.

If a species develops warp drive they are about to enter a world they might not be prepared for, so First Contact protocols are initiated to ease the new species into the larger galactic community (or else, see what happened between the Minbari and Earth in B5).

Though manned interstellar warp flight might ot be the only criterium to establish relations.

Practically anything that makes the new species aware, that they are not alone, would be sufficient.
They might develop subspace communication before warp fligt and pick up transmissions, or the have sleeper ships out there or deep space probes that came about strange aliens.

Of course, a species that doesn't have warp capability yet, must be protected under Prime Directive to not be influenced to much.
Of course, if they are aware of other species, they have a reason to heavily invest into warp flight research and might not be out of the loop for too long.

BillJ August 21 2013 03:18 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

Timelord_Victorious wrote: (Post 8534836)

If a species develops warp drive they are about to enter a world they might not be prepared for, so First Contact protocols are initiated to ease the new species into the larger galactic community...

Which is simply wrong.

The Federation is robbing newly warp-capable species of the ability to explore and grow and find their own place in the galactic community.

Praetor August 21 2013 04:39 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
I've always had a bit of an issue with that too. Let the new species seek them out if they want to. Watch them if you must, but for the love of God don't send an emissary (or missionary, if you prefer...) to their planet on the first day they have warp drive.

It's this sort of thing that makes the Federation look like a crazy root beer sipping cult... :rommie:

vulcan redshirt August 21 2013 07:45 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Development of subspace radio before warp drive apparently does not constitute 'acceptance into the community' - remember that episode where they young girl builds a subspace radio to call for assistance from the geological catastrophe (Sarjenka I think her name was). - remember how they had to mind-wipe her?

Also have to bear in mind that a numer of species that gain warp technology during the life of the federation are located within its boundaries (completely surrounded), so their post-warp cultural development is rather limited by that issue.

During TOS and TNG, we see many cultures that do not seem to be technologically advanced enough to have warp drive, however are freely visited without implications for the PD. One can assume that these species may had been previously visited by starships belonging to those not bound by the PD, and gained warp travel through purchase, or reverse engineering someone else's technology.

Finn August 21 2013 08:09 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 8535301)
I've always had a bit of an issue with that too. Let the new species seek them out if they want to. Watch them if you must, but for the love of God don't send an emissary (or missionary, if you prefer...) to their planet on the first day they have warp drive.

It's this sort of thing that makes the Federation look like a crazy root beer sipping cult... :rommie:

The Vulcans did it with us! :lol:

Shatnertage August 21 2013 08:14 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
I always had an issue with Picard's line in "First Contact" (TV show) that it was better for contact to take place in a controlled setting (in this case, the scientist's bedroom, after they beamed down unannounced) instead of out in space.

I'd be a lot less leery of a aliens that I met in the inky darkness of the interstellar void than ones who just showed up in my bedroom unannounced.

Finn August 21 2013 09:36 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
^Just checked the episode on Netflix. It's clearly a lab

Timo August 21 2013 11:14 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

So when did they decide that they dont have anything to do with species without warp capability?
Umm.... Never?

It's just an urban myth that the invention of warp drive would have anything much to do with Prime Directive protection or non-interference or any such thing. Rather, it's just that when a civilization does invent warp drive, this is the very last moment the Feds can contact them before they contact the Feds!

Ideally, some civilizations might be contacted earlier on - but the galaxy is a big place, and the Federation is busy with all sorts of things, so many a contact probably gets delayed until the very last moment, which is how we get episodes like "First Contact". This need not be in any sort of contradiction with other episodes where warp-less civilizations are contacted.

Quote:

Development of subspace radio before warp drive apparently does not constitute 'acceptance into the community' - remember that episode where they young girl builds a subspace radio to call for assistance from the geological catastrophe (Sarjenka I think her name was). - remember how they had to mind-wipe her?
This doesn't necessarily mean that subspace radio would be "insufficient" for contact - rather, it may be a further indication that technology is irrelevant to the contact issue, and other factors dictate whether the UFP has to stand off. In Sarjenka's case, Picard is wary of actively offering help to the locals when they don't (can't!) officially ask for help yet; the locals having warp might not have made Picard any more willing to push his assets, if the official plea for help wasn't forthcoming.

Contacting the locals in connection with this crisis might have been a bad move in any case: if there's any chance that interstellar interference would negatively affect a local culture, it's when said interference saves the planet! If salvation comes from the gods of the deep heavens, that's bound to passivate and demoralize the locals. Picard probably thus made the correct call in implementing the salvation in secret, as well as in not making contact at that time yet.

Timo Saloniemi

Praetor August 21 2013 11:15 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

Finn wrote: (Post 8536144)
Quote:

Praetor wrote: (Post 8535301)
I've always had a bit of an issue with that too. Let the new species seek them out if they want to. Watch them if you must, but for the love of God don't send an emissary (or missionary, if you prefer...) to their planet on the first day they have warp drive.

It's this sort of thing that makes the Federation look like a crazy root beer sipping cult... :rommie:

The Vulcans did it with us! :lol:

And that makes it right? ;)

Finn August 22 2013 12:06 AM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
^must have been the logical thing to do ;)

Gojira August 22 2013 12:17 AM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

jazzstick wrote: (Post 8534710)
Well...

There's "Who Watches The Watchers", but that was by accident I guess?


All Hail The Picard™!!!

I just watched that this afternoon. It does seem the Starfleet has a strange timetable by which they observe civilizations that have not achieved warp flight.

In First Contact (the episode) left me with the impression that they have not be observing them for too long. But "Who Watches The Watchers" makes me think they have been watching them for centuries.

jazzstick August 22 2013 12:59 AM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
Quote:

Timelord_Victorious wrote: (Post 8534836)
Rule of thumb.


That's a rule about beating your wife!

sariel2005 August 22 2013 04:30 PM

Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive
 
"Justice" seems to show a pre warp civilization, and possibly "Code of Honor" too.

That said there must be some protocols for pre warp contact, I mean what if a civilization is contacted by another power for example, Would be pointless to try and hide the existence of far roaming galactic powers from species who are aware of them already.

Then again we see on multiple occasions that the Prime Directive means that the Federation would rather sit back and watch a culture die than aid them if they are unaware of alien life.
Certainly in the TOS era that was not the case, notice that in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" Kirk is completely comfortable with his actions and his conversation with Spock in "The Apple" suggests that the prime directive is open to interpretation at that point. Note that Spock says that "Starfleet may not agree" not that they "Will Not" or that the Prime Directive is inviolable, something it certainly has become by the TNG era.

Funnily enough, omnipotent beings seem to have no problem with contacting lesser species and they by definition are all knowing.....


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