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CaptainBearclaw August 10 2013 05:08 AM

Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
kirk's character in the new movies is going through a major character arc of responsibility. A natural conclusion to such an arc is usually committing a major sacrifice for the greater good of the crew.

Wait, we've already seen that! yep, I submit that the story element of Kirk committing heroic sacrifice was better suited for the final film. Like Batman in The Dark Knight series.

What I'm getting at is that they have kind of written themselves into a corner if they were intending to have closure to this story in the final movie.

Let's hope they get creative.

captainkirk August 10 2013 07:47 AM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
I have been wondering what kind of development he will get in the next movie. The problem with the idea of having his Into Darkness development in the final movie is that it would be difficult to drag everything on for so long. I'm guessing though, that they will go in a different direction, and (although for originality's sake I hope I'm wrong) David Marcus may be involved.

Gsam August 10 2013 08:32 AM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
I pray to the star trek god's every night that there is no David Marcus in the next movie.

In wishing for the next movie to show Kirk's continued character arc, I would submit that highlighting his personal life is so not the way to go.

This is about Kirk and his relationship with star fleet, his crew, and the universe at large. It is not about Kirk's personal life. His growth, his ability to command would be based on the premise that he has learned some hard lessons about humility, arrogance, etc. One of those lessons would be do not get involved in a personal relationship with a crew member. Do what is right and work on himself and personal growth.

To be involved with Carol and then having David would just be a distraction and the same old, same old. He needs to have complete focus on the task at hand which is to be Captain Kirk.

Perhaps the way to go would be that he has an actual mature friendship with a female and shows he has learned the value of people including woman and that he doesn't need to sleep with every one he has ever met.

Learning to control impulses is the sign of a good captain. Yes TOS Kirk had his fun but it never interfered with his running of his ship.

Basically IMO it would just plain suck if there was a Jim/Carol thing. Not to mention if wouldn't be a good idea for a Bones/Carol thing for the same reasons.

I will scream bloody murder if we end up with Carol having David in another Kelvin like moment.

captainkirk August 10 2013 09:08 AM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Exactly. It would just be predictable and no one ever liked David. I'm hoping they do something no one is expecting. I was slightly disappointed after Alex Kurtzman had said that Kirk would have to deal with ordering crewmembers to their deaths and then there wasn't really anything like that in the movie. It would have been interesting to see a young captain having to make such a decision.

King Daniel Into Darkness August 10 2013 09:51 AM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
They'll have a daughter in this timeline. You read it here first! Remember me when you see it!! That's just the kind of AU twist the writers love.



As for Kirk's story, I'm reminded of an interview with Chris Pine where he said he can't imagine how they'll do a third movie after this. At the time I figured death, destruction and the fall of Earth as the trailers teased, but now I'm sure Pine was talking about what's next for Kirk after he's made the ultimate sacrifice and that he and Spock have outright declared their undying (and totally not gay) man love.

Franklin August 10 2013 04:17 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
STID will forever make this Kirk different from Kirk Prime. Kirk Prime was 53 (TWOK) before he learned you can't cheat death (aka there are no-win scenarios). Comparatively, Kirk learned this before he was 30 and in a far more intimate way (his own death, not Spock's). We should not expect to hear, "I don't believe in no-win scenarios," coming from Kirk's mouth ever again.

He'll also never give the "I've cheated death. I've tricked my way out of death, and patted myself on the back for my ingenuity. I know nothing," line Kirk Prime gave in TWOK. This Kirk didn't cheat death. That will have to affect his development going forward.

To that end, I hope we see a much more mature and well-rounded Kirk in the next movie.

talfe'anhar August 10 2013 04:55 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Great thread! I agree, no romance between Carol and Jim, no kids! I am always up for more Kirk-Spock dynamic. To me, they are soul mates and forever bonded to each other (and no, not gay!) So anything they do along those lines would be great with me. I still like the dark Kirk idea. It seems like if they are going out there on their mission, we should see some new galactic baddies that they have to deal with. Kirk going dark and Spock and the gang having to fight the new villains AND figure out how to save Kirk. There we go!

Gsam August 10 2013 07:56 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
To do a Kirk and Spock are soul mates centric film would be just wrong. Up until the point of Kirk's death scene they didn't even know each other.

I say this because how close could they have been if Spock didn't even know how close Kirk and Pike were. I am sure there were many off shift com calls between the two in Kirk's quarters.

I'm guessing that Spock was not present for these because he was spending his downtime with Uhura. Bones knew how close they were because it was he that spent downtime with Kirk in his quarters.

I am also sensing from the events of the movie that Kirk and Spock did not spend time together playing 3D chess. They do not have appeared to have spent anytime having discussions about life and such while say writing reports because Spock still had no clue about Kirk's style.

I could go on an on in all the ways that TOS and AOS differ with regards to the Kirk/Spock friendship. I know that now that they have had their death scene they are all the sudden best buddies.

I don't believe that. I believe that the dynamics have changes in this verse in that Spock has Uhura and where as in TOS he might have had emotional interactions with Kirk after a mission, he now does so with Uhura.

Furthermore, it is Bones that Kirk was willing to sacrifice everything for when his arm was caught in the missile. He was so upset that even Uhura deigned to comfort him with a hand on the shoulder.

It was only with Pike and Bones that Kirk showed any emotions whatsoever. I am positive that the Kirk/Spock friendship has been altered now that Spock has seen Kirk die.

But it is Bones who is the moral compass of Kirk and it would be him that could get Kirk to focus on what Spock is saying with regards to how to proceed in certain situations.

So IMO you need more Bones so that Kirk will focus more on what Spock and others are saying. Bones knows Kirk like the back of his hand and can handle him better than anyone else.

I think it is a big mistake to ignore the importance of Bones. If they had had more Bones in this movie things would have been very different. I believe Bones would have called Jim out on wanting revenge for Pike's death etc. He could have helped Jim think things through and realized certain truths sooner.

Sorry for the mini rant but I am very passionate in my belief that it is most important to bring Bones back to the inner circle and to actually have some lines written for him that aren't well just plain ridiculous

King Daniel Into Darkness August 10 2013 08:01 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
I bought Kirk and Spock as BFF's from the opening of Into Darkness. They were constantly needling each other, but you could tell they were loving it.

marksound August 10 2013 08:04 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
But Kirk did cheat death, just not by his own means. Now he absolutely knows that when he dies for real, his friends will not be able to save him. He will be, for lack of a better word, alone.

At the end of the next movie these characters should have evolved into the people we know from TOS.

My predictions:
Kirk is confident, but not brash and arrogant. He will be dedicated to his ship and crew, with little time for distractions.
Spock will have better control of his emotions, and there will be no romantic involvements to complicate things.
McCoy will be Kirk's confidante and conscience.
Scotty will be, well, Scotty.

Uhura will have moved on from her infatuation with Spock, Sulu will have begun his journey toward his own command, and Chekov will cultivate a Beatle 'do and start talking about little old ladies from Leningrad.

Carol Marcus, if she appears at all, will be moving toward a civilian career. Kirk's goodbye to her might be end up in a one night stand that leaves her pregnant, but I doubt it will be part of the story.

serenitytrek1 August 10 2013 08:41 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Quote:

talfe'anhar wrote: (Post 8492221)
Great thread! I agree, no romance between Carol and Jim, no kids! I am always up for more Kirk-Spock dynamic. To me, they are soul mates and forever bonded to each other (and no, not gay!) So anything they do along those lines would be great with me. I still like the dark Kirk idea. It seems like if they are going out there on their mission, we should see some new galactic baddies that they have to deal with. Kirk going dark and Spock and the gang having to fight the new villains AND figure out how to save Kirk. There we go!


Honestly, I rather see Kirk settle down for once in his life with a woman than have him keep having sex with every girl that smiles at him, that to me will be a real development to his character in terms of his personal life.

Are u sure you don't ship kirk and spock as gay guys? kirk and spock been soul mate should have no impact on what kirk does with women unless of course you secretly wish that the writers would make kirk and spock homosexuals.

I don't see how the kirk and spock dynamic would affect kirk from making good decision when it comes to women. which clearly he cant.

he didn't even remember who Christine Chapel was and that is a women he had sex with. He also couldn't recognise Gallia in the deleted scene of the first film and that was also another woman he had sex with and I am still hating the three way sex scene in STiD...I remember a pastor comparing it to bestiality and who can blame him.

I am not sure of the Kirk and Spock dynamic been front and centre in the movies is a good idea. In a TV series yes. In movies ....NO.

In fact some critics have complained that this was one of the weaker part of the films, Its like very other character took a back sit to Kirk and Spock.



In films with only 2 hours to spare, the crew of the enterprise is what matters most. A lot of people say more Bones , I say more Sulu for me please.

the writers also need to figure out a way for the films to have a leading female character without her overshadowing one of the male leads aka the Uhura replacing Bones argument.


Consider it like this, the crew if the enterprise are the fellowship of the ring. kirk and Spock are Frodo and sam.

Now do you know how much Lord of the rings would have sucked if it focused only on Frodo and sam?

believe me I cant put it in words.

marksound August 10 2013 09:16 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Quote:

I rather see Kirk settle down for once in his life with a woman
But that won't happen.

Kirk will go from being the rake we saw hem as in the first film to the dedicated, career-minded captain we know from the series. His involvements with women will evolve from the youthful conquests to momentary diversions from his job and responsibility.

Jim Kirk is not the "marrying kind." Some men are just that way. They don't have the time or patience for the day to day responsibilities of a serious relationship, no matter how much they think they want one.

That's why Prime Universe Carol sent him on his way. She knew he wouldn't be around, and that he would resent her if she tried to make him stay.

Kirk and Spock aren't gay. There's nothing in canon to even suggest it. Two men can be close friends without having sex, just as two women can, or even a man and a woman can. I don't know where all that slash stuff comes from.

serenitytrek1 August 10 2013 09:50 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Quote:

Carcazoid wrote: (Post 8493124)
Quote:

I rather see Kirk settle down for once in his life with a woman
But that won't happen.

Kirk will go from being the rake we saw hem as in the first film to the dedicated, career-minded captain we know from the series. His involvements with women will evolve from the youthful conquests to momentary diversions from his job and responsibility.

Jim Kirk is not the "marrying kind." Some men are just that way. They don't have the time or patience for the day to day responsibilities of a serious relationship, no matter how much they think they want one.

That's why Prime Universe Carol sent him on his way. She knew he wouldn't be around, and that he would resent her if she tried to make him stay.

Kirk and Spock aren't gay. There's nothing in canon to even suggest it. Two men can be close friends without having sex, just as two women can, or even a man and a woman can. I don't know where all that slash stuff comes from.


Well that was why I said....rather. I know it is likely not to happen . I don't think Kirk is the marrying kind as well and I don't even think star fleets top officers are the marrying kind. however I do know some of them are...Admiral Marcus surely had a wife.

However, I would take kirk marrying over his endless womanising.



NU-Trek is already facing accusation of sexism by some critics, do we really need to see Kirk in bed with 2 female Klingons next?


when both women will have no impact to the plot's film.

Clancy_s August 10 2013 10:37 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Quote:

serenitytrek1 wrote: (Post 8493232)
. I don't think Kirk is the marrying kind as well and I don't even think star fleets top officers are the marrying kind. however I do know some of them are...Admiral Marcus surely had a wife.

At some point, maybe now ex? It seems as though Carol spent a fair proportion of her childhood in the UK whereas Marcus accent is US, to my ears.

Quote:

serenitytrek1 wrote: (Post 8493232)
However, I would take kirk marrying over his endless womanising.

I'm in the give-us-space-adventure group and don't much care what they do with the characters personal lives so long as it's kept in the background, and a passing fling is easier to write off.

marksound August 10 2013 10:40 PM

Re: Kirk's Character Arc: Spoiled in Second Movie
 
Quote:

NU-Trek is already facing accusation of sexism by some critics, do we really need to see Kirk in bed with 2 female Klingons next?
Some would call that bad writing. I'd call it taking an easy way out to fill screen time.

That's one of my complaints with the current trend of 2-plus hour movies. It doesn't take two hours to tell a good story. A lot of what ends up onscreen is just unnecessary filler.

IMO, YMMV, yeah.


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