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-   -   D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=222205)

kgartm1185 August 8 2013 09:33 PM

D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Which flagship is more powerful, larger, and faster?

R. Star August 8 2013 09:38 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
I always perceived them as being roughly equal.

Timo August 8 2013 09:49 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
We know the Galaxy is faster, from "Tin Man". Obviously, Romulans wouldn't volunteer the specs of the design, but by the time of the episode, Starfleet must have accommodated enough intel to justify this assessment, and indeed the episode supports it in the sense that a D'deridex is badly damaged by forcing a speed higher than that of the E-D, and another warbird that doesn't want to be damaged is forced to travel slower than the E-D.

We know the D'deridex was intended to be larger, and was occasionally photographed as being larger, but this isn't all that clear-cut. We have seen ship vs. ship photography in conflict with size estimates obtained from other and more objective visual comparisons (doorway sizes or whatnot). Usually, such conflict is associated with comparisons of Starfleet ships vs. cloaking-capable enemy ships; perhaps cloaks have a tendency to alter the apparent size of a ship even when idled?

We know little about firepower, as any situation where a single warbird actually destroys a Federation target or is briefly feared of being capable of this is a "pants-down" one, and any situation where Picard objectively believes he absolutely cannot win the fight even with a fully prepared Enterprise involves more than one warbird...

So canonically it's sort of an even score, with one round undecided.

Timo Saloniemi

BillJ August 8 2013 11:05 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Whichever one the writer of a particular story needs to be more powerful.

kgartm1185 August 9 2013 02:05 AM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
"We know the D'deridex was intended to be larger, and was occasionally photographed as being larger, but this isn't all that clear-cut."

Galaxy class
Length - 642.51 meters
Beam - 463.73 meters
Height - 195.26 meters
Mass - 4.5 million metric tons
D'deridex class
Length - 1,041.65 meters
Beam - 772.43 meters
Height - 285.47 meters
Mass - 4.3 million metric tons

The D'deridex class warbird may have been longer, wider, and taller than the Galaxy class but it was not "larger".

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...bird_Sizes.jpg

Shawnster August 9 2013 02:22 AM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Larger dimensions, but a lot of hollow space there. I bet internal volume is a lot closer to being the same.

I suspect they're comparable in strength, but the Galaxy class gets the edge for reliability and flexibility.

kgartm1185 August 9 2013 02:35 AM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Quote:

Shawnster wrote: (Post 8487061)
Larger dimensions, but a lot of hollow space there. I bet internal volume is a lot closer to being the same.

I suspect they're comparable in strength, but the Galaxy class gets the edge for reliability and flexibility.

Exactly.:techman:

Timo August 9 2013 04:40 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Umm, what? Clearly, the volume of the warbird is much greater than that of the Galaxy if we accept the external dimensions shown above.

Eyeballing from the pictures, a single Romulan nacelle is already worth three Federation ones (and let's remember that the makers of the DS9 Tech Manual from which these figures come assume that some 25% of a starship's mass is in her warp coils.). The saucer is but a fraction of the size of either the upper or the lower wing. And then comes the beak section of the Romulan ship...

The D'deridex might be a tad less massive/voluminous than the Galaxy if both were of equal length, yes. But it would be a close call even in that case.

If we take this Tech Manual set of figures, we probably have to assume that the analyst let a digit out of the Romulan mass figures... 14,300,000 metric tons is closer to what the volume ratio suggests!

Timo Saloniemi

kgartm1185 August 9 2013 04:51 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 8488501)
Umm, what? Clearly, the volume of the warbird is much greater than that of the Galaxy if we accept the external dimensions shown above.

Eyeballing from the pictures, a single Romulan nacelle is already worth three Federation ones (and let's remember that the makers of the DS9 Tech Manual from which these figures come assume that some 25% of a starship's mass is in her warp coils.). The saucer is but a fraction of the size of either the upper or the lower wing. And then comes the beak section of the Romulan ship...

The D'deridex might be a tad less massive/voluminous than the Galaxy if both were of equal length, yes. But it would be a close call even in that case.

If we take this Tech Manual set of figures, we probably have to assume that the analyst let a digit out of the Romulan mass figures... 14,300,000 metric tons is closer to what the volume ratio suggests!

Timo Saloniemi

The mass of the Warbird would never be 14,300,000 metric tons. It is about 4,300,000 metric tons because the Warbird has a lot of empty space inside it that is never used. They didn't know what to do with all the extra space. So it actually looks a lot bigger than it actually is. The Romulans ended up creating a ship that has a bigger bark than a bite.

BillJ August 9 2013 05:05 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Quote:

kgartm1185 wrote: (Post 8488534)
The mass of the Warbird would never be 14,300,000 metric tons. It is about 4,300,000 metric tons because the Warbird has a lot of empty space inside it that is never used. They didn't know what to do with all the extra space. So it actually looks a lot bigger than it actually is. The Romulans ended up creating a ship that has a bigger bark than a bite.

If I remember my TNG Technical Manual correctly, the Galaxy-class also has a large amount of unused internal volume.

Maybe if I click my heels together three times and chant "there's no designer like Sternbach", Rick Sternbach will come in and offer some insight.

Though I'm pretty sure from a combat standpoint, the intent was that the two classes were roughly equal.

BillJ August 9 2013 05:26 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
From the TNG Technical Manual:

Quote:

1.3 General Overview wrote:
As the Enterprise left the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards, approximately 35% of the internal volume was not yet filled with room modules and remained as empty spaceframe for future expansion and mission-specific applications.


Timo August 9 2013 05:38 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Quote:

So it actually looks a lot bigger than it actually is.
Except that it does not. It is a lot bigger.

Just the coarse side view will reveal the massive warp nacelles, the humungous "head hull", and the sheer chord of those wings. The ship in the smaller of the two alternative views above is necessarily at least three times as heavy as the Galaxy, assuming somewhat similar materials and construction techniques, and quite possibly ten million tons heavier.

The Galaxy is a flat and flimsy thing that is mostly empty volume - draw a box around it and there's lots of "wasted" volume between the nacelles and underneath the saucer. Draw a box around the Romulan ship and the amount of "wasted" volume is at most the same, and probably a bit less.

Timo Saloniemi

TheSubCommander August 9 2013 06:32 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Size matters not, though. The Kazon had ships even larger than Romulan Warbirds, and Voyager could handle them one on one, easily.

The sense I always got was that the Warbirds' technology were overall inferior to the Federation's, especially with Galaxy class and newer, and the only thing that might give the Romulans the edge is cloaking technology.

The Romulans must fear the Federation's strength for some reason though, otherwise they wouldn't demand by treaty that the Federation not be allowed to have a cloaking device.

JirinPanthosa August 9 2013 08:15 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
I get the impression that they're equally gunned, but I'll vote the warbird cause they have a cloak.

BillJ August 9 2013 09:52 PM

Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class
 
Quote:

JirinPanthosa wrote: (Post 8489197)
I get the impression that they're equally gunned, but I'll vote the warbird cause they have a cloak.

I really can't vote because I don't know enough about the D'deridex. They weren't all that forthcoming with technical specs during the course of the 24th century series.


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