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-   -   [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=221164)

Noddy July 29 2013 05:43 PM

[Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
I'm not entirely sold on why precisely Marcus and Section 31 needed Khan to design the Vengeance. They must have experienced starship builders already on hand. Anyway, what are the chances that Khan, a twentieth century man, could come up with something like that in the short time since Vulcan's destruction and his awakening?

BillJ July 29 2013 06:08 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
The Dreadnaught-class was likely already under construction, Khan likely was someone who just put the cherry on top.

Mage July 29 2013 06:24 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
He's a geneticly engineered superhuman. I mean, Khan in TOS was able to take over and learn to use a starship pretty darned quickly. ;) So why not be able to learn about starship systems and then enhance them?

King Daniel Into Darkness July 29 2013 06:24 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
I suspect Khan took an unbuilt warship concept and improved upon it, rather than designing it from the ground-up. Marcus was planning his war with the Klingons for years, Vulcan's destruction gave him the excuse he needed and Khan was a big bonus help from "an uncivilized time"

BillJ July 29 2013 06:26 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8442538)
I suspect Khan took an unbuilt warship concept and improved upon it, rather than designing it from the ground-up. Marcus was planning his war with the Klingons for years, Vulcan's destruction gave him the excuse he needed and Khan was a big bonus help from "an uncivilized time"

The Enterprise looked to be half-way done when Kirk entered the Academy and was only launching three years later. I doubt that they could have built a ship twice the size in less than a year.

King Daniel Into Darkness July 29 2013 07:13 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Perhaps, being high priority, they just put 10x as many workers on it? But you're right, Vengeance being already under construction and given a few extra bells and whistles by Khan (like the ability to be flown by just one man... I'm sure nobody at S31 HQ thought that suspicious!:lol:) after he was thawed does make more sense.

Chemahkuu July 29 2013 07:19 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Exactly, Vengeance was already underway, Marcus wanted an uncivilised view of warfare, weaponry, tactics and ideas to basically put every under handed advantage possibly into his ship and think of every contingency should it be needed.

Proofing, not building. And I suspect had Khan not escaped, Marcus would have found another way to incite war, and simply dispose of Khan and his men immediately after.

C.E. Evans July 29 2013 07:32 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
I'm sure some of us today could take any existing starship design and think of ways to make it a truly scary battleship.

Timo July 29 2013 08:52 PM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Yeah. All we need is an existing starship design now! :devil:

Khan may well have exaggerated his role in the creation or interior decoration of the Vengeance. He'd be just the type, after all. Probably Marcus employed a dream team of psychopaths, with Khan just one of the loonier ones; if Khan really were a unique asset to Marcus, he'd probably be under closer watch and unable to effect his escape.

Timo Saloniemi

Noddy July 30 2013 12:02 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8442556)
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8442538)
I suspect Khan took an unbuilt warship concept and improved upon it, rather than designing it from the ground-up. Marcus was planning his war with the Klingons for years, Vulcan's destruction gave him the excuse he needed and Khan was a big bonus help from "an uncivilized time"

The Enterprise looked to be half-way done when Kirk entered the Academy and was only launching three years later. I doubt that they could have built a ship twice the size in less than a year.

^This.

trevanian July 30 2013 12:47 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8442556)
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8442538)
I suspect Khan took an unbuilt warship concept and improved upon it, rather than designing it from the ground-up. Marcus was planning his war with the Klingons for years, Vulcan's destruction gave him the excuse he needed and Khan was a big bonus help from "an uncivilized time"

The Enterprise looked to be half-way done when Kirk entered the Academy and was only launching three years later. I doubt that they could have built a ship twice the size in less than a year.

I'm sure if they BUILT IT IN SPACE they could have put together something very big very quickly.

BillJ July 30 2013 12:52 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

trevanian wrote: (Post 8444335)

I'm sure if they BUILT IT IN SPACE they could have put together something very big very quickly.

Why would building in space be any quicker? You still have to fabricate the parts and assemble the ship.

Kruezerman July 30 2013 01:07 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Wow, that's an argument I haven't heard in a while.

trevanian July 30 2013 03:28 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8444350)
Quote:

trevanian wrote: (Post 8444335)

I'm sure if they BUILT IT IN SPACE they could have put together something very big very quickly.

Why would building in space be any quicker? You still have to fabricate the parts and assemble the ship.

Assembly in zero-gee by veterans would be like a hardware ballet. Once you get gravity out of the way and have people who understand inertia and mass, handling construction would be like shuffling cards.

They've already done limited fabrication in space because you can form things in zero-gee that are harder to do down here. Presumably that would be beneficial for starships too. Not EVEN gonna get into the whole business of antimatter planetside and warp engines within a gravity well, especially with Orci's weird claim that you'd need a gravity well to calibrate the engines.

Honestly, the whole built-on-Earth thing has always made me feel like I'm living among Flat-Earthers, or with people who think a light-year is a conventional measurement of time rather than distance. If there's anything that bugs me more than religious fundamentalist zealots, politicians and repeat felons (and yeah, all three of those go together handily enough some of the time), it is flat-Earthers. (Velikovsky folks probably fit in there somewhere as well.)

BillJ July 30 2013 03:33 AM

Re: [Spoiler] designing the Vengeance
 
Quote:

trevanian wrote: (Post 8444743)

Honestly, the whole built-on-Earth thing has always made me feel like I'm living among Flat-Earthers, or with people who think a light-year is a conventional measurement of time rather than distance. If there's anything that bugs me more than religious fundamentalist zealots, politicians and repeat felons (and yeah, all three of those go together handily enough some of the time), it is flat-Earthers. (Zelikovsky folks probably fit in there somewhere as well.)

You do understand it's a movie?

You may have a "ballet" during construction, but it's still going to take a good, long time to fabricate parts for a 1,400 meter ship.


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