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-   -   shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=220432)

Hando July 20 2013 06:44 PM

shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Using Wold Newton as a guide, it appears that Greg Cox made several nods to spy fiction of that era.

Also there have been comic crossovers with X-Men, Legion of Superheroes, Dr. Who, Infection...

Now, is there a possibility that Star Trek actually shares the universe with these?

The comic ones can be explained away as a crossover between parallel universes, but what about series like The Avengers, Man from UNCLE, Pretender, ... :confused:

Could these also have happened on Star Trek's Earth? Or were they only easter eggs, showing that something dis happen, but not necessarily what we have seen on screen?


By the way what other fictional works could have happened in Star Trek? Well we can say with a 99.9999% definitiveness that StarGate (at least not the TV series, the Movie could have happened), Blade Runner, Alien+Predator could not have happened. ;)

King Daniel Into Darkness July 20 2013 06:55 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Marvel comics exist in Trek's universe - as comics (Starfleet Academy), films (presumably) and (in early New Frontier's) holodeck programs. IIRC, the Trident's original security officer....

Christopher July 20 2013 06:59 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
The problem with science fiction is that each series tends to paint the history, technology, geography, and physics of the universe in a different way, so it's rare to find two SF franchises that can cross over. The only non-Trek works that I consider to be part of the Trek universe are other Roddenberry pilots -- The Questor Tapes (which a few Trek novels have very subtly hinted might be part of the universe) and Genesis II/Planet Earth (which I consider to be the alternate timeline that would've resulted if Gary Seven hadn't intervened in Earth history, as discussed here).

Pretty much anything that shows Earth making contact with aliens before 2063 is out, so no Alien Nation or V. No The 4400 or Alphas, since there are very few superpowered humans in the Trek universe (basically just the occasional esper) and since time travel (a big deal in The 4400) is initially seen as only a theoretical possibility in Trek's era.

So yeah, we'd probably be dealing with SF-lite shows like The Man from UNCLE. In the course of watching it on DVD, I've wondered if it could be considered part of the Trekverse, but I think it's a little too goofy, and it gets rather campy later on. The Avengers (the '60s spy show, of course) also got rather comical and fanciful at times.

The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman are interesting candidates, since they show a rather more advanced space program in the '70s than we had in real life, which is consistent with TOS's portrayal of human spaceflight. But then, what happens to that nifty bionics technology? Is it lost in the Eugenics Wars or WWIII? And in that case, can you count the '90s reunion movies?

Greg Cox July 20 2013 07:07 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
The only thing we know for sure is that Star Trek takes place in the same universe as "Here Comes The Brides." :)

E-DUB July 20 2013 09:36 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
I seem to remember a reference in one of Cox's "Khan" books to a character who could have been Jamie Summers.

Hando July 20 2013 09:50 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
The problem with science fiction is that each series tends to paint the history, technology, geography, and physics of the universe in a different way, so it's rare to find two SF franchises that can cross over. The only non-Trek works that I consider to be part of the Trek universe are other Roddenberry pilots -- The Questor Tapes (which a few Trek novels have very subtly hinted might be part of the universe) and Genesis II/Planet Earth (which I consider to be the alternate timeline that would've resulted if Gary Seven hadn't intervened in Earth history, as discussed here).

A good approach. But then what happened to Hunt in the regular timeline? Was he reanimated earlier (after all Star Trek's cryogenics works) or did they forgot about him and he is still there.

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
Pretty much anything that shows Earth making contact with aliens before 2063 is out, so no Alien Nation or V. No The 4400 or Alphas, since there are very few superpowered humans in the Trek universe (basically just the occasional esper) and since time travel (a big deal in The 4400) is initially seen as only a theoretical possibility in Trek's era.

True, although I would skip on The 4400 just from the story alone, after all how many people actually know that it is the case of time travel. By itself Alphas could happen in a timeline with later Eugenic Wars, placed in the 2010s. :shrug: But as Alphas supposedly share the universe with Eureka and Warehouse 13, it ought to be out by default.

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
So yeah, we'd probably be dealing with SF-lite shows like The Man from UNCLE. In the course of watching it on DVD, I've wondered if it could be considered part of the Trekverse, but I think it's a little too goofy, and it gets rather campy later on. The Avengers (the '60s spy show, of course) also got rather comical and fanciful at times.

So it is more likely that these people and organisations were active, but some events either did not happen or at least not as depicted...

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman are interesting candidates, since they show a rather more advanced space program in the '70s than we had in real life, which is consistent with TOS's portrayal of human spaceflight. But then, what happens to that nifty bionics technology? Is it lost in the Eugenics Wars or WWIII? And in that case, can you count the '90s reunion movies?

Given the cost do you wonder? Even in "Bionic-land" in the 90s there was only a handful of Bionic people, so ...



And all those acronyms (OSI, M9, UNCLE...) could very well make up the core from which Section 31 was built. :devil:

Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8406598)
The only thing we know for sure is that Star Trek takes place in the same universe as "Here Comes The Brides." :)

Oh, please. :barf:

Relayer1 July 20 2013 09:53 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
There would appear to be a very good chance that one of J T Kirk's ancestors was a Sergeant in the LCPD, working with a colleague who rather surprisingly seems to have been the physical model for the holographic Vic Fontaine...

Christopher July 20 2013 10:07 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Hando wrote: (Post 8407261)
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
The problem with science fiction is that each series tends to paint the history, technology, geography, and physics of the universe in a different way, so it's rare to find two SF franchises that can cross over. The only non-Trek works that I consider to be part of the Trek universe are other Roddenberry pilots -- The Questor Tapes (which a few Trek novels have very subtly hinted might be part of the universe) and Genesis II/Planet Earth (which I consider to be the alternate timeline that would've resulted if Gary Seven hadn't intervened in Earth history, as discussed here).

A good approach. But then what happened to Hunt in the regular timeline? Was he reanimated earlier (after all Star Trek's cryogenics works) or did they forgot about him and he is still there.

In the Trek timeline, Gary Seven prevented the orbital-nukes buildup, so nuclear tensions wouldn't have been as extreme in the late '70s when Genesis II begins. Thus, the subshuttle network and underground bunkers wouldn't have been built, and Dylan Hunt's cryogenic experiments would probably have happened elsewhere, so there would've been no cave-in and the experiment would've been completed successfully -- most likely leading to the invention of sleeper-ship technology by the 1990s.



Quote:

By itself Alphas could happen in a timeline with later Eugenic Wars, placed in the 2010s. :shrug:
Except the Alphas weren't the result of genetic engineering, but naturally occurring variations that had been cropping up for centuries without being acknowledged. Since there aren't a bunch of Alphas running around in the Trek future, they don't go together.

Besides, it's probably hard to find a modern SFTV series that doesn't have characters making references to Star Trek as a fictional series at some point. I don't recall if there were any in Alphas, but I'd be surprised if there weren't.


Quote:

But as Alphas supposedly share the universe with Eureka and Warehouse 13, it ought to be out by default.
I never bought that, since those two shows are in much more fanciful universes than Alphas. And Lindsay Wagner's Alphas appearance as Dr. Calder took care to avoid any overt references to Eureka, Warehouse 13, or any concepts and characters from those shows. So I prefer to treat her as a separate, coincidentally identical Dr. Vanessa Calder in a separate fictional reality.


Quote:

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman are interesting candidates, since they show a rather more advanced space program in the '70s than we had in real life, which is consistent with TOS's portrayal of human spaceflight. But then, what happens to that nifty bionics technology? Is it lost in the Eugenics Wars or WWIII? And in that case, can you count the '90s reunion movies?

Given the cost do you wonder? Even in "Bionic-land" in the 90s there was only a handful of Bionic people, so ...
New technologies are always expensive to start with, but the cost tends to go down (at least in proportion to inflation) as the technology matures.

Darth Duck July 20 2013 10:09 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Given how wonky and weird the chronology for FX's Archer is, Cap'n Jonathan might not have been the only member of his family caught in in the Temporal Cold War (The Soviet Union and jokes about Dane Cook in the same episode? Blame Future Guy)

Hando July 20 2013 11:13 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8407330)
Except the Alphas weren't the result of genetic engineering, but naturally occurring variations that had been cropping up for centuries without being acknowledged. Since there aren't a bunch of Alphas running around in the Trek future, they don't go together.

Hm, I wonder. How do we know that there are none? Around 0.02%...
Given the anti-Augment attitudes, I would expect that any uberhuman would likely try to hide his or hers abilities.

We also do not know the source of superhuman abilities of Star Trek's humans - that we kn ow of like immortality or telepathy (Sky Peole, "Ancient Astronauts", Augmented ancestor, Progenitor design...).


Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8407330)
Besides, it's probably hard to find a modern SFTV series that doesn't have characters making references to Star Trek as a fictional series at some point. I don't recall if there were any in Alphas, but I'd be surprised if there weren't.

Who notices? The only one I recall was the First StarGate time travel episode, and I seem to recall something in Fringe, but that is all. By now it is part of the culture. So we may see it as a production mistake, or just plainly ignore - if it is overt. After all we ignore LCARS jokes.


Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8407330)
I never bought that, since those two shows are in much more fanciful universes than Alphas. And Lindsay Wagner's Alphas appearance as Dr. Calder took care to avoid any overt references to Eureka, Warehouse 13, or any concepts and characters from those shows. So I prefer to treat her as a separate, coincidentally identical Dr. Vanessa Calder in a separate fictional reality.

To tell the truth, I watched both Alphas and Warehouse 13 only once, so I got this second-hand and still am not sure who she is - I just did not make the connection.
And your approach is quite rational, I use it too (think Ally McBeal/Practice or the Chicago Hope/Picket Fences/X-files... mess).

Quote:

Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8406538)
The Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman are interesting candidates, since they show a rather more advanced space program in the '70s than we had in real life, which is consistent with TOS's portrayal of human spaceflight. But then, what happens to that nifty bionics technology? Is it lost in the Eugenics Wars or WWIII? And in that case, can you count the '90s reunion movies?

Given the cost do you wonder? Even in "Bionic-land" in the 90s there was only a handful of Bionic people, so ...
New technologies are always expensive to start with, but the cost tends to go down (at least in proportion to inflation) as the technology matures.[/QUOTE]

So in the 90s there would be the 15 million dollar man? I wonder if that is cost effective.
Also on the other hand given the fear and hate of Augments, in the after Eugenic Wars era they may abandon bionics. Both genetic engineering and bionics create superhuman abilities, so thats why.

Another anti Bionic/Star Trek argument could be the Alien family from Andromeda. Radioactive and Human-anti-resistant.

Although this could be due to the galactic barrier, and we are still 300 years before the Kelvan invasion... But why on Earth did they crash-landed exactly on Earth? :confused:

The other 2 alien races I could live with.

Christopher July 20 2013 11:21 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
^I'm afraid I don't remember enough from the bionic shows to know what you're referring to. But Andromeda is a very big galaxy, estimated to have more than twice as many stars as our own. It probably contains many, many separate civilizations.

Hando July 20 2013 11:36 PM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8407738)
^I'm afraid I don't remember enough from the bionic shows to know what you're referring to. But Andromeda is a very big galaxy, estimated to have more than twice as many stars as our own. It probably contains many, many separate civilizations.

In this one:Straight On 'Til Morning.

And my problem is not that they are from the Andromeda Galaxy, but that they landed on Earth of all things. Think this Earth is the center of the universe.

It is not such a problem.

Also we know that there was an expedition from Andromeda some time ago: remember the Mudd androids.

Greg Cox July 21 2013 12:42 AM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

E-DUB wrote: (Post 8407192)
I seem to remember a reference in one of Cox's "Khan" books to a character who could have been Jamie Summers.

[Stares at the ceiling and whistles innocently.]

As for shows that have referenced Trek as a TV show . . . off the top of my head, I can think of LOST, WAREHOUSE 13, FARSCAPE, and, er, BIG BANG THEORY.

And I'd be seriously surprised if neither CASTLE or BUFFY ever referenced Trek, as the pop-culture references fly fast and furious on those shows.

Relayer1 July 21 2013 12:44 AM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8408044)
Quote:

E-DUB wrote: (Post 8407192)
I seem to remember a reference in one of Cox's "Khan" books to a character who could have been Jamie Summers.

[Stares at the ceiling and whistles innocently.]

Greg Cox, you're a bad man ! :)

Greg Cox July 21 2013 12:50 AM

Re: shared universe, crossovers and easter eggs
 
Quote:

Relayer1 wrote: (Post 8408056)
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8408044)
Quote:

E-DUB wrote: (Post 8407192)
I seem to remember a reference in one of Cox's "Khan" books to a character who could have been Jamie Summers.

[Stares at the ceiling and whistles innocently.]

Greg Cox, you're a bad man ! :)

I confess: John Ordover and I had way too much fun sneaking easter eggs into those books.


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