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-   -   Cause and Effect - why didn't they... (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=219952)

King Daniel Into Darkness July 16 2013 07:01 PM

Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
...just yell the solution as the Enterprise was about to explode, which would then be heard in the next loop's meeting when they played back the voices Beverly heard?

Pavonis July 16 2013 07:07 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Because the information that made it through from loop to loop didn't seem to be complete. Indeed, most of the information that was crucial came from several seconds or minutes before the collision, and nothing from immediately after it - except for "abandon ship", I think.

Zippo and Flask July 16 2013 07:13 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Quote:

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: (Post 8387731)
...just yell the solution as the Enterprise was about to explode, which would then be heard in the next loop's meeting when they played back the voices Beverly heard?

That would have been interesting. They should have hurriedly gotten the senior officers together in choir robes and had them singing the solution in southern gospel form.

Melakon July 16 2013 08:54 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Oh, we all know what would have happened. Picard would be the one to give the warning to the past due to his incomparable elocution skills with important speeches, and it would have gone like this: "Attention, this is Captain Jean-Luc Picard. The information I am about to give you is of high importance and necessary for the safety of the Enterprise. It is absolutely imperative that you immediately-- ." Boom.

JirinPanthosa July 16 2013 09:00 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Here's the part of Cause and Effect I don't get.

The crew chooses not to turn back because 'Maybe turning back is what leads to the accident'.

Yeah, maybe. But then why can't you then just choose a random direction calculated based on background radiation that would be guaranteed to be different each pass? That way if somehow you did generate the exact trajectory that led to the accident, you wouldn't on the next pass.

Mario de Monti July 16 2013 09:08 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
There is actually a much, much simpler solution: Just change course! Someone (Riker?) actually suggested this in one of the meetings but this was being dismissed, since that change in course might just be what leads to the collision and brings them into the loop in the first place. The first time into the loop however, when they hadnīt been in it previously, they didnīt have this meeting (they only started to have it after they noticed the strange things) and thus no reason to change course! So changing course at that point would definitely have averted the collision ... but would also have deprived us of a very fun episode :)

EDIT:
@JirinPanthosa

I didnīt see your post in time, guess Iīll have to type quicker!

Pavonis July 16 2013 09:09 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
"Turning back" couldn't have been the decision that caused their predicament. They'd not have any reason to turn back in the first iteration of the incident that lead to the loops. They'd be plowing ahead just like they always do. So Riker was being overly cautious and not particularly insightful with his comment.

Tiberius July 17 2013 05:21 AM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Quote:

JirinPanthosa wrote: (Post 8388415)
Here's the part of Cause and Effect I don't get.

The crew chooses not to turn back because 'Maybe turning back is what leads to the accident'.

Yeah, maybe. But then why can't you then just choose a random direction calculated based on background radiation that would be guaranteed to be different each pass? That way if somehow you did generate the exact trajectory that led to the accident, you wouldn't on the next pass.

How would it be different each time? Is the radiation at stardate 45652.10975893 going to be different the second time through compared to the first time through?

Tiberius July 17 2013 05:25 AM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8388472)
"Turning back" couldn't have been the decision that caused their predicament. They'd not have any reason to turn back in the first iteration of the incident that lead to the loops. They'd be plowing ahead just like they always do. So Riker was being overly cautious and not particularly insightful with his comment.

I don't get this.

As you said, the first time through they had no reason to turn back, so that means that going forwards is what gets them into trouble. So how is Riker being "overly cautious and not particularly insightful" when he suggests doing something that will take the Enterprise away from the event that causes the incident?

Pavonis July 17 2013 05:37 AM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
No, Riker thought turning around is what got them in trouble. That's why they didn't turn around.

Bad Thoughts July 17 2013 06:17 AM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Too bad no one tried to contact the nearest base until after the disaster was averted.

Noname Given July 17 2013 07:55 AM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8387758)
Because the information that made it through from loop to loop didn't seem to be complete. Indeed, most of the information that was crucial came from several seconds or minutes before the collision, and nothing from immediately after it - except for "abandon ship", I think.

IDK - Data said he isolated relevant parts; but come on - they couldn't get the audio of the final orders before 'abandon ship'? (Hell, he was able to count how many of the crew were doing what in his first sample pass in Main Engineering.)

It's just more of Mr. Braga's hackneyed writing.

The Librarian July 17 2013 02:35 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
A better question is why the final decision is presented as either/or: use the tractor beam or vent the shuttlebay. Do both! Better yet, do both without spending thirty seconds debating it. The tractor beam would have worked fine if it had been used immediately.

Noname Given July 17 2013 10:53 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
Quote:

The Librarian wrote: (Post 8391607)
A better question is why the final decision is presented as either/or: use the tractor beam or vent the shuttlebay. Do both! Better yet, do both without spending thirty seconds debating it. The tractor beam would have worked fine if it had been used immediately.

Honestly, that ALWAYS been my problem with Picard's style of Command. If Kirk was in Command, and an officer said 'collission course' -- Kirk would have IMMEDIATELY barked an order and the ship would have been saved (or not.)

What's the first thing out of Picard's mouth when Worf says 'collision course'?

Picard: "Suggestions?!"

Sorry, but WTF? Is he the Captain or not?:rofl:

jimbotron July 17 2013 11:41 PM

Re: Cause and Effect - why didn't they...
 
One thing bugged me about the episode. In the final loop, Data comprehends the "3", and has enough time to figure it out and depressurize the shuttlebay.

The tractor beam would have already been on for several seconds (you can even hear Worf's panel). The other loops show that by the time the tractor beam activates, the Bozeman is already mere feet from the Enterprise.

When we see the Enterprise push away from the Bozeman's path, we see the tractor beam never activated.


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