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-   -   Changeling infiltrators' "templates" (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=219736)

Melakon July 15 2013 12:16 AM

Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
We know the Founders impersonated key figures in their espionage efforts. We know they replaced several people from various governments.

With In Purgatory's Shadow we learn who some of those people were. What I don't understand is why the Dominion kept them alive. The double was in place, they didn't believe in fairplay, and they really had no need to keep these Solids around anymore. Of course it's necessary for the writers to keep these guys alive, but in-universe, the Founders don't give a flying fish about them. Though I guess they might want to do some sort of mind probing experiments for intelligence as we'd seen before.

A Ferengi Changeling might have been interesting-- and nobody discovers him until "Rom" beats up Quark.

I liked the impersonated Commander Lovok of the T'alShiar. Too bad he blew his cover.

DeepSpaceWine July 15 2013 01:21 AM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8380282)
We know the Founders impersonated key figures in their espionage efforts. We know they replaced several people from various governments.

With In Purgatory's Shadow we learn who some of those people were. What I don't understand is why the Dominion kept them alive. The double was in place, they didn't believe in fairplay, and they really had no need to keep these Solids around anymore. Of course it's necessary for the writers to keep these guys alive, but in-universe, the Founders don't give a flying fish about them. Though I guess they might want to do some sort of mind probing experiments for intelligence as we'd seen before.

A Ferengi Changeling might have been interesting-- and nobody discovers him until "Rom" beats up Quark.

I liked the impersonated Commander Lovok of the T'alShiar. Too bad he blew his cover.

Bashir could've been spared because he was with Odo in "Broken Link" and perhaps they couldn't bring themselves to killing someone a fellow Changeling, even if a pariah, can trust or confide in. Maybe they wanted to know what made him ("that solid") so special/different. Maybe some end up used as slaves or some are kept alive to psychologically break them, like a form of high profile prisoners (i.e. they kill people they deem of low value but hold captive people of high value). Tain had the gall to lead an extermination force against them.

Yeah, a Ferengi Changeling would've been interesting. Thinking about the various crews who ended up possessed or replaced by impostors at one time or another, a Quark impostor or Ferengi Changeling would've been interesting, though I think the Ferengi weren't seen as a threat. They would easily roll over to the Dominion since all they care about is money and commerce and the Dominion lets that go on, so long as they have oversight.

Pavonis July 15 2013 01:31 AM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
The Dominion strikes me as practical, not sentimental. If they kept the originals alive after replacing them, they must feel it necessary. Perhaps they interrogate them regularly, or draw blood to send to the infiltrator. Whatever it is, they have a good reason.

Sran July 15 2013 01:32 AM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
We know that the Dominion puts together psychological profiles of prominent figures (Benjamin Sisko). Perhaps one method of doing this is by capturing and observing an individual in confinement to learn more about how he thinks and adapts to extreme circumstances. In the case of physically imposing beings like Worf or Martok, there's the added advantage of being able to train the Jem'Hadar for combat by learning more about species-specific fighting styles.

As an aside, I wonder what Bashir might have done had he been forced to fight. His genetic enhancements might have helped him defeat Jem'Hadar, but would he have risked revealing his secret just to stay alive? An interesting idea could have been to have him suddenly overpower a Jem'Hadar solilder- perhaps to save Garak- and claim that his adrenaline took over. As his secret was revealed in the following episode, it would have been a nice hint at what was to come.

--Sran

Melakon July 15 2013 02:22 AM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8380561)
. . .As an aside, I wonder what Bashir might have done had he been forced to fight. His genetic enhancements might have helped him defeat Jem'Hadar, but would he have risked revealing his secret just to stay alive? An interesting idea could have been to have him suddenly overpower a Jem'Hadar solilder- perhaps to save Garak- and claim that his adrenaline took over. As his secret was revealed in the following episode, it would have been a nice hint at what was to come. . .

But not even Siddig knew about the genetic enhancements when they were filming those earlier episodes. He learned it the next week when he first read "Dr. Bashir I Presume?" Surprise, you're suddenly not who you thought you were. And they did it to him twice in a single month. It's almost as if the writers knew we'd be trying to retcon explanations for all of Bashir's earlier behavior for the next 20 years.

On those impersonated prisoners, I suppose the Founders might recognize their value when it came to forcing their enemies to surrender (Yield, or we'll kill your king). And perhaps they're also studied so other impostors can learn their speech and behavior patterns.

Timo July 15 2013 07:10 PM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
There's also the possibility that there were no captives. Or rather, there were just enough captives taken that when these were allowed to escape, they would spread the false impression that their cellmates had also been captives - while in fact they were simply further Founder impersonators, ready to take over from previous impersonators who were in imminent danger of exposure.

Say, did Garak ever return from the prison camp? Or was Bashir just allowed to escape when the Bashir Impersonation Program came to a triumphant end - along with a false Garak who would subsequently e.g. pretend to suffer from shell-shock and fumble his code-breaking tasks ("Destiny")?

Timo Saloniemi

Sran July 15 2013 10:12 PM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
^That happened in "Afterimage." "Destiny" was the third season episode in which the Sword of Stars nudged open the wormhole enough for the communications relay to work.

--Sran

Timo July 15 2013 10:51 PM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
Right... I think my brain crosswired USS Destiny from Ezri's past.

It might be that not just Garak went in Cardassian and came out Founder. Bashir might have been killed and replaced, too. After all, it was he who almost single-handedly thwarted Starfleet's plan of killing all the Founders with the bioweapon!

Timo Saloniemi

Jiangnan Freak July 19 2013 06:51 AM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8380555)
The Dominion strikes me as practical, not sentimental. If they kept the originals alive after replacing them, they must feel it necessary. Perhaps they interrogate them regularly, or draw blood to send to the infiltrator. Whatever it is, they have a good reason.

Bargainig chips. If the inflirtarator is discovered they can still exchange prisoners.

hux July 25 2013 04:47 PM

Re: Changeling infiltrators' "templates"
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8380561)
As an aside, I wonder what Bashir might have done had he been forced to fight. His genetic enhancements might have helped him defeat Jem'Hadar, but would he have risked revealing his secret just to stay alive? An interesting idea could have been to have him suddenly overpower a Jem'Hadar solilder- perhaps to save Garak- and claim that his adrenaline took over. As his secret was revealed in the following episode, it would have been a nice hint at what was to come.

But there was the episode where Worf believed Bashir was interested in Ezri and so he goes to the medical area to warn Bashir off her and puts his arm over Bashirs throat and Bashir tries to fight him off but doesn't have the strength to do it (and this was long after everyone knew about his genetic engineering)

I'm not sure if he was actually that strong - wasn't he engineered simply to have better hand/eye coordination and agility etc


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