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TheSubCommander July 12 2013 06:40 AM

Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
During the Klingon-Federation War of 2372-73 the two sides fought a brief but bloody and bitter war. And it prompts me to make both some observations and ask some questions.

First an observation, as quickly as they were enemies, they were friends again. Now, it seems to me that was a little too clean and simple that the two sides got along as friction-free as they did, after the war, necessity for an alliance against the Dominion notwithstanding. Sure, one can possibly explain the Klingons were able to put aside any grudges after the war was over if for no other reason than out of respect for Starfleet holding its own, and the fact that in Redemption, the Klingons would fight each other by day in the Klingon Civil War, and drink together by night. War and battle was just business and nothing personal. But for Starfleet members, it was personal: a former ally turned on them and started attacking them. Did anyone else have a problem with that?


But most of all, imagine if you will, and taking all the other powers out of the equation (especially the Dominion, the war kept on going. Who would have won in that time frame? Would it have been a replay of Yesterday's Enterprise, with the Klingons projected to eventually defeat the Federation, or would it have been different?

Anwar July 12 2013 06:56 AM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
The whole thing was a Dominion manipulation (Martok manipulating Gowron) which might've made Starfleet be more sympathetic.

After all, Dominion manipulation had almost turned Starfleet against itself with Leyton just a bit earlier.

Shawnster July 12 2013 01:34 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
So, is this considered a separate war or a part of the Dominion War?

TheSubCommander July 12 2013 03:40 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Well, let's imagine so as to keep the Dominion out of this war, the Prophets blocked their entry to the Alpha quadrant. Romulans and all other powers remain neutral, leaving the Klingon Empire and UFP to slug it out. The Klingons discover that the Changeling-Martok is the impostor before the Federation did and remove him, but to prevent scandal and a possible second Klingon Civil War that removes him from office, Gowron covers it up and continues the war, anyway.

Pavonis July 12 2013 05:28 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
In the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass. That would suggest the Klingons are capable of defeating the UFP militarily. But what do the Klingons have that Starfleet doesn't? Who has more ships? Who controls more resources? What does it really take to win an interstellar war? What would the Klingons consider "victory conditions" versus what would the UFP consider victory?

Anwar July 12 2013 06:29 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8369305)
In the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass. That would suggest the Klingons are capable of defeating the UFP militarily. But what do the Klingons have that Starfleet doesn't? Who has more ships? Who controls more resources? What does it really take to win an interstellar war? What would the Klingons consider "victory conditions" versus what would the UFP consider victory?

We don't know how well the Klingons were holding up on their end of the war, for all we know they were putting up a good front and were on the verge of collapse themselves and the Feds didn't know.

Pavonis July 12 2013 06:39 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
^Possibly, but Picard was afraid Starfleet would collapse in 6 months or so. If the Klingons were only going to last 7 months themselves, they'd still win. But then what have they won? A hundred or more ruined worlds? A populace continuously straining to overthrow them? An empire so large that they couldn't hope to hold it without being contaminated by the cultures and ideals within it? Or would the Klingons consider it a good game, pat themselves on the back for being the victors, write some operas about the better battles, and leave the UFP to pick up the pieces of itself, with perhaps some tribute being sent to Kronos on a regular schedule?

jmampilly July 12 2013 07:15 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
The TNG episodes seem to indicate the Klingon Empire is stronger, which doesn't seem to make much sense, given that the Federation's culture promotes technological advancement, and the unity of the different species within the Federation would give Starfleet resources that the Klingons, who subjugate species, wouldn't have.

DS9 seems to indicate that Starfleet would win. First of all, while the Klingons were attacking DS9, Worf says "The Empire is not strong enough to defeat both the Cardassians and the Federation." In another episode later on, Worf's brother says he opposed the war with the Federation because he believes that the Federation is powerful, and that the Klingon Empire may not necessarily win a war with the Federation.

All in all, DS9 gives us the indication that the Federation is more powerful, and since DS9 is the series that takes place farther in the future, I'd have to say that the Federation would win.

Pavonis July 12 2013 07:39 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
The Federation might well defeat the Klingons, if they ever had the desire to do it. But they tend to favor diplomacy over combat, and wouldn't even wait to have the Klingons on their knees before trying to talk things over. Whereas the Klingons will go to war full-tilt and won't hold back the way the Federation always does. Even in the short war with the Klingons, how many resources did Starfleet really commit to the conflict? Did the top brass and the politicians really want to go to full-scale war with Klingons while the Dominion was waiting in the wings?

Consider that after fighting Starfleet for a few months, while fighting the Cardassians simultaneously, the Klingons still had enough resources to fight the Dominion for a couple of years, too. They must have some considerable resources for a monolithic empire, then. They managed to do what it took all the combined cultures of the UFP to do!

In the event of a long-term war between the Klingons and the UFP, would the UFP hold together? Or would some species withdraw from the UFP to avoid the wrath of the Klingons? When the Klingons fight the UFP, do they think of all the members equally, or are they targeting just the Humans and the Vulcans?

137th Gebirg July 12 2013 08:56 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8369305)
In the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass. That would suggest the Klingons are capable of defeating the UFP militarily.

This was why I chose Klingons as the victor in such a conflict, although I do appear to be in the minority at present. :shrug:

MacLeod July 12 2013 09:06 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Well we can't really use an alternate timeline as a baseline, as events probably played out differently. So perhaps in the YE alternate timeline due to fighting the Klingons for x years instead of exploring the UFP didn't sdiscover something which gave them the upper hand. Or failed to bring in a new member with some tech that helped. Did the Klingons co nquer the Romulans before attacking the UFP, as retaliation for attacking the NArendra III outpost?

jmampilly July 12 2013 09:06 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Quote:

137th Gebirg wrote: (Post 8370340)
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8369305)
In the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass. That would suggest the Klingons are capable of defeating the UFP militarily.

This was why I chose Klingons as the victor in such a conflict, although I do appear to be in the minority at present. :shrug:

The problem is the lack of details. We know nothing of the actual war in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

In DS9, the Martok Changeling seemed to believe that the Federation would eventually get its act together and push the Klingons back into their own territory. Also, in "The Way of the Warrior," a task force of nine starships seemed to pose a serious threat to several dozen Klingon warships.

Pavonis July 12 2013 09:09 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Why would "inter-House" conflict weaken the KDF? If anything, competition between Houses for the most victories should increase the KDF's chances of victory over the enemy! Klingon Houses only fight each other when there's no one better to fight, and the Council leaders might encourage it so that the forces stay sharp during "peacetime".

Hartzilla2007 July 12 2013 09:41 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Quote:

jmampilly wrote: (Post 8370400)
Quote:

137th Gebirg wrote: (Post 8370340)
Quote:

Pavonis wrote: (Post 8369305)
In the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate timeline, the Klingons were kicking Starfleet's ass. That would suggest the Klingons are capable of defeating the UFP militarily.

This was why I chose Klingons as the victor in such a conflict, although I do appear to be in the minority at present. :shrug:

The problem is the lack of details. We know nothing of the actual war in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

In DS9, the Martok Changeling seemed to believe that the Federation would eventually get its act together and push the Klingons back into their own territory. Also, in "The Way of the Warrior," a task force of nine starships seemed to pose a serious threat to several dozen Klingon warships.

Plus the federation has had years to beef up its military power in response to the Borg and Dominion kicking their asses.

TheSubCommander July 12 2013 10:29 PM

Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3
 
Good points being made that Yesterday's Enterprise isn't necessarily the inevitable outcome. As stated, we don't know enough on how the Klingons were able to get the upper hand in the first place, or how their side was doing.

As of Way of the Warrior, it seems to me the Federation overall has superior tech, but Starfleet is geared more towards exploration and peacekeeping, whereas the Klingons train for war. So, I think the Klingons offset the tech advantage out of tenacity, making the odds even. The Federation ships probably have the edge one on one, but the Klingons often have a cavalry of sorts where BOPS travel in wolf packs to make up for that, and the Klingons do have a cloaks on most if not all warships, as well.

The Feds would implement their own cloak eventually, but the Klingons could potentially win key victories before the cloaks were pressed into service by the Fed. Then again, because even though the Feds would be using the cloaks against the Klingons, that would violate the Romulan-UFP treaty, and they may not want to risk angering the Romulans and possibly fight a 2 front war. So, it is possible they may abstain from using cloaks.


I therefore voted stalemate, but lean towards the Klingons slightly, though if they were able to pull out a victory, I would think it would be a Pyrrhic victory.


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