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-   -   Endgame was awesome! (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=218086)

Vulcan Logician June 28 2013 09:25 AM

Endgame was awesome!
 
I hope I am not alone amidst legions of Trek fans here, when I assert that Endgame was an awesome episode. Fine, I see there are detractors. I have encountered Endgame on "Top 5 worst voyager episodes" lists. To each his own. I personally would include it in my top ten FAVORITE episodes of VOY.

Am I missing something? Was I high when I watched it?

I am completely confounded as to why people hate this episode. I love it dearly. I'm sure at least someone out there likes it as much as I.

Love or hate... please enlighten me.

R. Star June 28 2013 10:13 AM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
If you're asking for opinions, I can offer one. Though I'm not sure you'll care for it. Certainly regardless of mine, you're not the only person who likes the episode. If you enjoy it more power to you. Since you're asking for enlightenment as to why some don't? Well I'll bite, here we go...

It started off strong with a good teaser. In fact the first time I watched it with the reunion scenes at the beginning I was stoked because finally they were going outside the box and doing something creative. I thought it was going to be a flashback episode in a way both showing how they got home, perhaps a few more adventures along the way, and where they all ended up in life.

Instead... no. We just got yet another time travel episode and Borg episode all thrown in one. Like some sort of dead horse beating special, two for the price of one. It's like the writers just got together and went around the table brainstorming about the most facepalming things they could do.

So you have future Janeway willing to change the timeline. Well that might almost make some sense except for why at that point? Why not a few weeks earlier to save Carey? Why not stop them from getting stranded at all? Her original plan was -not- to destroy the transwarp hub after all, to just get them home. Though I guess you could argue that all she wanted to save Seven and she's more important than all the other people on Voyager who died. Though that doesn't make our heroine exactly look good.

Then the Borg... well let's just take away any menacing presence they once had at all. Seriously, the way Voyager was invincible with it's batmobile armor and gunning down Borg Cubes with one shot, I've seen more plausible scenarios involving godmode on video games. Which essentially this is what it was, but if that's not enough they have to technobabble destroy the whole Collective's super technobabble transwarp whatever that conveniently leads all the way to Earth. Boy that would've been useful for the Borg in Best of Both Worlds or First Contact.

As I said, I liked the future part at first, but once it came apparent it was just a plot device to get future Janeway to the past with godmode gear, it lost any dramatic effect. Barclay's cured? So what... Tuvok got Vulcan Alzhemiers? Oh well. Chakotay's dead? Too bad. Seven? Well we'll fix that too and remove any drama while we're at it. If you're going to handwave away these dramatic moments and consequences... you lose the drama and meaning in even putting them on screen too.

The visual effects were nice, but I've said many times they enhance an episode, they don't define it. If you sprinkle sugar on crap... it's still crap. Wrap the whole package in a bowtie with absolutely no resolution beyond a single line saying they're home and a two second shot of them flying towards Earth while the end credits pop up and you end the series on a rather disappointing note.

Though at least it wasn't These Are the Voyages... ;)

Guy Gardener June 28 2013 10:30 AM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
You're running a fun run for charity. Half way to the finishline, a version of you travelled back in time, pulls up in front of you in a stolen car. They urge you to hop in, then drive you to the end of the race only to die minutes later.

Do you think that you should really collect on all your pledges to the charity, since you only ran half the funrun and not all of it like you were supposed to, just because you did get to the finishline "technically" like you said you would?

And THAT's what's wrong with Chakotay and Seven Hooking up.

teacake June 28 2013 11:33 AM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I think it's very nice of 7 to agree to sleep with Chakotay for charity.

JarodRussell June 28 2013 12:22 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I don't like the premise of it. Janeway was a bad Captain and then decides the erase the past 20 years of the entire galaxy just in order to get 100 people home. That's immoral. And since the time police had been introduced in the show, her plan would never fly.

And Trek lit makes the episode even worse. Just because of Admiral Janeway's time travel, BILLIONS are killed. Admiral Janeway is DIRECTLY responsible for that. And all just for getting a bunch of people home earlier.

Infern0 June 28 2013 12:48 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I never really liked it.

I could echo the opinions above, but the main disappointment for me was that Voyager "getting home" literally took up the last 60 seconds of the show.

Do we get to see them reunite with their families? Do we get to see Tom hug his Dad? Do we get to see Janeway beam down outside starfleet HQ in san fransisco?

No, none of that, we get borgs blowing up for an hour and a half and then a last shot of earth right at the end.

I'd spent 7 seasons waiting for them to get home, I would have enjoyed at least 5 minutes of them actually you know, at home!

To me it just had no emotional impact, and that was a shame after all that time.

Guy Gardener June 28 2013 12:53 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I wanted to see the Beta Quadrant.

Zippo and Flask June 28 2013 01:24 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
Here's the problem with Endgame. In "Eye of the Needle", only 7 episodes into season 1, the Voyager crew refused an offer to have their expedition to the Bad Lands prevented because they had already made a significant impact on the lives of people in the Delta Quadrant.

So, the precedent had been set that you shouldn't undo "history". Yet in Endgame, there was suddenly no problem with undoing 20 years of unseen Voyager history. If the immorality of changing their own timelines was being ignored, then it would have made more sense to stop Voyager from being stranded in the Delta Quadrant in the first place.

teacake June 28 2013 01:35 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I don't care about the "problems". I bought pizza and watched that finale and I loved every second of it. And I still think it was a fantastic FINALE of Voyager.

Did I want to see what happened when they got back, how the Maquis had boring ass trials and got special dispensation thingies and how Harry got promoted at last and how B'Elanna and Tom had a baby shower at Tom's parent's house? No.

There were no godawful montages like in DS9's finale, no exploded rectum pieces of blech like ENT's finale, it was a whole lot of Borg and time travel and TWO Janeway's and fireworks over the Golden Gate bridge.

It was awesome and it was a trip.

But yeah some people don't like it.. whadda ya gonna do.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5099/5...0ed9af7d_b.jpg

Jeri June 28 2013 01:59 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
Quote:

Endgame was awesome!
Yes, it was. :D And I luv the Admiral. Glad she got back on the brew, though; that was a close one.

Gaith June 28 2013 02:50 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
Quote:

Vulcan Logician wrote: (Post 8310322)
I am completely confounded as to why people hate this episode. I love it dearly. I'm sure at least someone out there likes it as much as I.

Love or hate... please enlighten me.

If you're honestly puzzled as to why you're wrong, please report back after reading Michelle Erica Green's and Richard Whettestone's reviews. ;)

Guy Gardener June 28 2013 03:37 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I couldn't stop laughing the first time I read Richard's review.

Quote:

If you're from the future, then you must know when Rick Berman will be fired.
2006. :)

DonIago June 28 2013 04:10 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
Quote:

JarodRussell wrote: (Post 8310541)
I don't like the premise of it. Janeway was a bad Captain and then decides the erase the past 20 years of the entire galaxy just in order to get 100 people home. That's immoral. And since the time police had been introduced in the show, her plan would never fly.

And Trek lit makes the episode even worse. Just because of Admiral Janeway's time travel, BILLIONS are killed. Admiral Janeway is DIRECTLY responsible for that. And all just for getting a bunch of people home earlier.

Now now...if you're going to bash Trek lit for that, you should also note that it establishes that if those billions hadn't died then the Borg would ultimately have taken over the entire galaxy.

Bry_Sinclair June 28 2013 04:43 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
I'm pretty much "meh" towards it. By that point in the series' run I had lost interest in the Seven of Nine show, but did watch the finale when it was on.

Time travel is an overused plot element and in this episode Janeway breaks about every rule of time travel, going back in time to tell them what happened, giving them advanced technology, etc, all because of her unrequited love for Seven (the other excuses about how her death affected Chakotay was pretty poor and very little was made about Janeway’s best friend suffered a serious neurological breakdown on their voyage).

Other little things bug me such as: Torres being an ambassador to the Klingon Empire, the Doctor being married, Barclay’s inclusion, the sudden Chakotay/Seven thing, Kim being Captain :lol: —but nothing enough to detract from the overall episode.

How they get home is a smart idea, and I liked seeing Alice Krige back as the Queen. But the super-Voyager was a bit of a cop out, as was the fact the Borg apparently don’t have any firewalls/anti-virals to deal with biological attack.

It’s been a while since I last saw it and if it came on TV I wouldn’t flick away, but I wouldn’t go out of my way to see it again.

MacLeod June 28 2013 08:38 PM

Re: Endgame was awesome!
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8310403)

So you have future Janeway willing to change the timeline. Well that might almost make some sense except for why at that point? Why not a few weeks earlier to save Carey? Why not stop them from getting stranded at all? Her original plan was -not- to destroy the transwarp hub after all, to just get them home. Though I guess you could argue that all she wanted to save Seven and she's more important than all the other people on Voyager who died. Though that doesn't make our heroine exactly look good.

Then the Borg... well let's just take away any menacing presence they once had at all. Seriously, the way Voyager was invincible with it's batmobile armor and gunning down Borg Cubes with one shot, I've seen more plausible scenarios involving godmode on video games. Which essentially this is what it was, but if that's not enough they have to technobabble destroy the whole Collective's super technobabble transwarp whatever that conveniently leads all the way to Earth. Boy that would've been useful for the Borg in Best of Both Worlds or First Contact.

As I said, I liked the future part at first, but once it came apparent it was just a plot device to get future Janeway to the past with godmode gear, it lost any dramatic effect. Barclay's cured? So what... Tuvok got Vulcan Alzhemiers? Oh well. Chakotay's dead? Too bad. Seven? Well we'll fix that too and remove any drama while we're at it. If you're going to handwave away these dramatic moments and consequences... you lose the drama and meaning in even putting them on screen too.

The visual effects were nice, but I've said many times they enhance an episode, they don't define it. If you sprinkle sugar on crap... it's still crap. Wrap the whole package in a bowtie with absolutely no resolution beyond a single line saying they're home and a two second shot of them flying towards Earth while the end credits pop up and you end the series on a rather disappointing note.

Though at least it wasn't These Are the Voyages... ;)

Quote:

Zippo and Flask wrote: (Post 8310652)
Here's the problem with Endgame. In "Eye of the Needle", only 7 episodes into season 1, the Voyager crew refused an offer to have their expedition to the Bad Lands prevented because they had already made a significant impact on the lives of people in the Delta Quadrant.

So, the precedent had been set that you shouldn't undo "history". Yet in Endgame, there was suddenly no problem with undoing 20 years of unseen Voyager history. If the immorality of changing their own timelines was being ignored, then it would have made more sense to stop Voyager from being stranded in the Delta Quadrant in the first place.

These are more or less my issues with the episode.

As has been pointed out as early as season one, Janeway made the descion that they shouldn't try and stop their mission from being lauched ("Eye of the Needle") yet a few years later who cares if we change the lives of who knows how many people. And why not go back even further and prevent all those deaths and prevent Voyager from being stranded in the first place, or even a few weeks and save Carey?

Surely the Starfleet which monitors the future as seen in "Relativity" would just undo such a massive change to the timeline.

Oh and lets not forgot the Borg have a transwarp conduict exit almost on Earth's doorstep, but stay instead of sending a ship to assimalte Earth via that way thus minimsing the time Starfleet has to mobilise to defend. lets send a ship the old fashioned way right through Federation space.


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