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-   -   Scotty and his military comment (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=217690)

Charles Phipps June 24 2013 11:17 AM

Scotty and his military comment
 
This isn't a question of whether you agree whether Starfleet is a military organization or not, this is actually about your reaction to Scotty's surprise and disgust they're going to be involved in a hit.

What did you think about JJ Abrams making sure general audiences knew about this?

BillJ June 24 2013 12:23 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
I didn't have a problem with it. Different people have different ideas on what is acceptable and the mission crossed Scotty's.

Charles Phipps June 24 2013 01:11 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
I thought it articulated the idea Starfleet wasn't a military organization better than Picard's blanket pronunciation.

Also, it had the weight of the fact it was an explicitly illegal strike too.

The Wormhole June 24 2013 01:13 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
While I had problems with Scotty's characterization in XI, in particular downgrading him to a comic relief role, I had no such problems in STID. Taking a stand in what he believes and willing to resign in protest of a mission he feels is wrong is perfectly in character for Scotty, and I could easily imagine Doohan Scotty doing something similar.

I do wish they didn't go in the route of saying he objected to a military mission because Starfleet isn't military. They could have just said he had problems with the mission and not opened that can of worms. But whatever, "Starfleet isn't the military" is a lie that existed all the way to TNG and for whatever reason Abrams wants to continue with it.

Belz... June 24 2013 01:54 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Charles Phipps wrote: (Post 8291659)
I thought it articulated the idea Starfleet wasn't a military organization better than Picard's blanket pronunciation.

I think it articulated the idea that the Enterprise's mission wasn't supposed to be military, and that that wasn't what Scotty signed on for.

Charles Phipps June 24 2013 03:43 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8291665)
I do wish they didn't go in the route of saying he objected to a military mission because Starfleet isn't military. They could have just said he had problems with the mission and not opened that can of worms. But whatever, "Starfleet isn't the military" is a lie that existed all the way to TNG and for whatever reason Abrams wants to continue with it.

I used to think this but I've come around to the opposite. The US Navy does many humanitarian efforts but if it's primary purpose was science, I'd think calling it the Navy would be off.

-Brett- June 24 2013 04:07 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Charles Phipps wrote: (Post 8292130)
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8291665)
I do wish they didn't go in the route of saying he objected to a military mission because Starfleet isn't military. They could have just said he had problems with the mission and not opened that can of worms. But whatever, "Starfleet isn't the military" is a lie that existed all the way to TNG and for whatever reason Abrams wants to continue with it.

I used to think this but I've come around to the opposite. The US Navy does many humanitarian efforts but if it's primary purpose was science, I'd think calling it the Navy would be off.

But if it was expected to fight wars, calling it a navy would be about right.

Belz... June 24 2013 04:24 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Charles Phipps wrote: (Post 8292130)
I used to think this but I've come around to the opposite. The US Navy does many humanitarian efforts but if it's primary purpose was science, I'd think calling it the Navy would be off.

Well it is called StarFLEET, so there's still an implication in there, especially in TOS, even if it's not explicit.

Ovation June 24 2013 04:31 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
You can have a fleet of merchant vessels. "Fleet" is not exclusive to military collections of ships in a navy.

Charles Phipps June 24 2013 04:35 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Belz... wrote: (Post 8292268)

Well it is called StarFLEET, so there's still an implication in there, especially in TOS, even if it's not explicit.

A fleet is a purpose-neutral term for any group of sailing vessels.

3chordboy June 24 2013 04:38 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
what about Pike's use of the word "armada" in the 2009 film when referring to Starfleet? :)

solariabsg25 June 24 2013 04:43 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
The problem for Abrams is, Starfleet was always a military (see the organization in TOS, David's comments about scientists always being "pawns of the military" when Reliant reported it was going to pick up genesis etc).

It's just that Roddenberry wanted to have his cake and eat it too, stating that despite the fact that they use a military organization, military rank structure, have military style awards, military style courts-martials, and are used in military operations such as wars, covert espionage, etc, they weren't military.

JJ Abrams therefore needs to follow the military feel and structure, while also confirming Roddenberry's assertion that Starfleet is not a military organization.

Belz... June 24 2013 04:45 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Ovation wrote: (Post 8292310)
You can have a fleet of merchant vessels. "Fleet" is not exclusive to military collections of ships in a navy.

I'm well aware of that. But if you've never heard of Star Trek, and I say that they belong to an organisation called Starfleet Command, what's your first reaction ?

M'Sharak June 24 2013 08:18 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Ovation wrote: (Post 8292310)
You can have a fleet of merchant vessels. "Fleet" is not exclusive to military collections of ships in a navy.

True. However, it was established (in the Prime universe/timeline/reality thingy, at least) that there also exists a "merchant service" which is separate from Starfleet - one which will accept personnel who have been dropped from the Academy for failing a fifth-year psycho-simulator test.

Crazy Eddie June 24 2013 09:12 PM

Re: Scotty and his military comment
 
Quote:

Belz... wrote: (Post 8292367)
Quote:

Ovation wrote: (Post 8292310)
You can have a fleet of merchant vessels. "Fleet" is not exclusive to military collections of ships in a navy.

I'm well aware of that. But if you've never heard of Star Trek, and I say that they belong to an organisation called Starfleet Command, what's your first reaction ?

If you've never heard of Spaceguard, and I tell you I work for the Spaceguard Organization, what's YOUR first reaction?


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