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-   -   (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=217156)

Photon June 19 2013 12:43 AM

(BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
had worked, would:

A) The jems have gone ape shit and have gone through the 'anamoly' and attack everything in sight or

B) Give up and die

Both answers were speculated in Inprobable Cause/Die is Cast

Third Nacelle June 19 2013 12:55 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
I think if that attack had succeeded, there would still be enough Founders scattered around to keep the Jem'Hadar under control and start a new Great Link.

On the other hand, if there were no Founders left, I would guess that the Vorta/JH relationship would fall apart pretty quickly and the JH would do a lot of damage to whatever they could find before the White ran out.

R. Star June 19 2013 01:07 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
I somehow doubt the Founders physically manufactured the White themselves. The Vorta had to have done that being they were the ones distributing it.

Tain just didn't think it through... at all. In all likelihood the Great Link, albeit smaller, would've survived between the ones actively infiltrating, the hundred and any who may be in the Dominion doing anything else.

Regardless, the Vorta would unleash the Jem'Hadar, even if they somehow were all annihilated. The Female Founder In What We Leave Behind flat out said the Jem'Hadar would fight to the death, even after she died. I somehow doubt the Vorta are just going to stop making the White just because their gods are dead. If anything quite the opposite, they'll want to avenge them.

Sran June 19 2013 01:33 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

Photon wrote: (Post 8266582)
Both answers were speculated in Inprobable Cause/Die is Cast

It was actually speculated that they would "weaken and die." But "A" would happen before "B."

--Sran

SpHeRe31459 June 19 2013 01:40 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8266693)
I somehow doubt the Founders physically manufactured the White themselves. The Vorta had to have done that being they were the ones distributing it.

According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.

Sran June 19 2013 01:45 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

SpHeRe31459 wrote: (Post 8266867)
According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the attack on the Founders that happened before the Dominion even came into the Alpha Quadrant. The topic is about what might have happened had Tain's plan succeeded. The Son'a weren't even in the picture then.

--Sran

R. Star June 19 2013 02:02 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8266891)
Quote:

SpHeRe31459 wrote: (Post 8266867)
According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with the attack on the Founders that happened before the Dominion even came into the Alpha Quadrant. The topic is about what might have happened had Tain's plan succeeded. The Son'a weren't even in the picture then.

--Sran

It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.

Sran June 19 2013 02:05 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8266987)
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.

You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran

SpHeRe31459 June 19 2013 02:08 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8267017)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8266987)
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.

You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran

Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.

R. Star June 19 2013 02:13 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8267017)
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8266987)
It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.

You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

--Sran

No, sir. I believe you are. It simply demonstrates behavior in regards to their super drug to control their slave warrior race. Yes we're discussing an alternate scenario, but that doesn't mean behavior patterns in regards to control of that substance aren't relevant information. If they're willing to trust the Son'a with something that important, I imagine they'd trust the Vorta or someone else with it in the Gamma Quadrant.

Sran June 19 2013 02:13 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

SpHeRe31459 wrote: (Post 8267053)
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.

I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran

R. Star June 19 2013 02:15 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8267092)
Quote:

SpHeRe31459 wrote: (Post 8267053)
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.

I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran

Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.

SpHeRe31459 June 19 2013 02:16 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
So then if you go with my premise of it being made by another race, I think we get to a pretty nasty Scenario A. The Jem's rampage, they go to the subjected race making the White and take it all and possibly even kill this race in unfocused rage (which is short sighted but they wouldn't care at that point). They'd probably slaughter the Vorta for being weak fools who are not strong enough to avenge their gods' deaths, and then wreak serious havoc on the Alpha Quadrant in the name of the Founders until their White supplies finally ran out.

SpHeRe31459 June 19 2013 02:17 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8267107)
Quote:

Sran wrote: (Post 8267092)
Quote:

SpHeRe31459 wrote: (Post 8267053)
Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.

I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

--Sran

Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.

Exactly, the Founders are nothing if not elitist.

Sran June 19 2013 02:17 AM

Re: (BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders
 
Quote:

R. Star wrote: (Post 8267089)
No, sir. I believe you are. It simply demonstrates behavior in regards to their super drug to control their slave warrior race. Yes we're discussing an alternate scenario, but that doesn't mean behavior patterns in regards to control of that substance aren't relevant information. If they're willing to trust the Son'a with something that important, I imagine they'd trust the Vorta or someone else with it in the Gamma Quadrant.

That's prescisely my point. You can't assume that a given pattern of behavior will apply under completely different circumstances. Consider what we know about the Founders. They don't trust solids, any solids. Why would they willingly turn over control of drug production to the Vorta?

Yes, they were willing to allow the Son'a to assist them in the Alpha Quadrant, but they had no other means of manufacturing the drug after being cut off from the wormhole. Those circumstances were highly unusual.

Recall that Weyoun hounded Dukat endelessly at the beginning of the war becasue he was concerned about the supply of drug available for the Jem'Hadar. Clearly, they hadn't found another means of making the drug. The Son'a were a last resort, not a luxury.

--Sran


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