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-   -   Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=216832)

LobsterAfternoon June 14 2013 11:01 PM

Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical?
 
I apologize in advance if this is a poorly-described question, but here goes:
I absolutely love the new cast for the reboot films, and I absolutely understand why they needed a new cast to make these movies. But from an in-universe perspective, would Chris Pine look identical to a young Shatner? Like, are we to believe that if Spock Prime had a photo of his Kirk as a young man, that it would be a picture of the actor Chris Pine? Or would it be a photo of the actor William Shatner? Does this question make sense at all?

Locutus of Bored June 14 2013 11:07 PM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
In ST09 Spock Prime immediately recognized young Kirk in the ice cave without hesitation despite having no prior knowledge of his arrival on planet. That means that from the character's perspective nuKirk looks exactly like young Prime Universe Kirk.

In DS9, Ziyal was played by three different actresses, yet all the characters within the show still immediately recognized her as Ziyal each time.

Christopher June 14 2013 11:14 PM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Spock Prime also recognized Scotty on sight.

Not to mention that nobody ever asked Saavik why she got extensive cosmetic surgery right after Spock died, or wondered why Tora Ziyal kept changing appearance, or wondered why the Zefram Cochrane who lived with the Companion didn't look a thing like the one who got drunk with Counselor Troi. And Steve Austin never wondered why Dr. Rudy Wells looked like three different people over the course of half a decade, and the '60s Batman and Robin never wondered how Catwoman changed ethnicity and got seven inches shorter, or why the Riddler temporarily turned into Gomez Addams that one time. The change is because different actors are playing the role, but within the fiction there's not supposed to be any difference.

King Daniel Into Darkness June 14 2013 11:31 PM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
In-universe, they look identical. Just like with any other recasting - Saavik or Ziyal or whoever.

I'm sure that if they flashed back to a Wrath of Khan scene featuring Saavik in STIII, they'd have reshot it to feature Robin Curtis instead of Kirstie Alley.

LobsterAfternoon June 15 2013 12:01 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Fair enough, thanks for the thoughts, guys.

CommishSleer June 15 2013 12:47 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8248525)
Spock Prime also recognized Scotty on sight.

Not to mention that nobody ever asked Saavik why she got extensive cosmetic surgery right after Spock died, or wondered why Tora Ziyal kept changing appearance, or wondered why the Zefram Cochrane who lived with the Companion didn't look a thing like the one who got drunk with Counselor Troi. And Steve Austin never wondered why Dr. Rudy Wells looked like three different people over the course of half a decade, and the '60s Batman and Robin never wondered how Catwoman changed ethnicity and got seven inches shorter, or why the Riddler temporarily turned into Gomez Addams that one time. The change is because different actors are playing the role, but within the fiction there's not supposed to be any difference.

I have a problem with the Zefram Cochrane thing. :lol:

The Keeper June 15 2013 01:08 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Why is that, CommishSleer or were you just kidding?

I thought James Cromwell was perfectly cast to play an older Glenn Corbett.

CommishSleer June 15 2013 01:31 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Quote:

The Keeper wrote: (Post 8249200)
Why is that, CommishSleer or were you just kidding?

I thought James Cromwell was perfectly cast to play an older Glenn Corbett.

I am serious. Its just the change in characteristics I didn't like - not the appearance. From good ol' American hero to washed up selfish drunkard.

I had no problem if it was a different character altogether. Oh no I sound like the people who hate Cumberbatch's Khan.:eek:

Since FC was such a good movie, it doesn't really matter and I'm not going to complain about it for 20 years - just now and then :)

The Keeper June 15 2013 01:54 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
hehehe

I see now.

Actually, however, you have his timeline events reversed. It goes - washed up selfish drunkard to good ol' American Hero because First Contact happens before Enterprise. It was the heroism he couldn't stand and fled Earth only to encounter the Companion, who made him young again.

Admiral Buzzkill June 15 2013 02:43 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Yes. They are the same person.

Everyone in the nuTrek universe is the exact same person as in the oldTrek universe and looks identical to them, including Chekov.

Including Kha-a-a-a-a-a-a-aan! :cool:

Christopher June 15 2013 02:53 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Quote:

The Keeper wrote: (Post 8249458)
Actually, however, you have his timeline events reversed. It goes - washed up selfish drunkard to good ol' American Hero because First Contact happens before Enterprise. It was the heroism he couldn't stand and fled Earth only to encounter the Companion, who made him young again.

Rather, he eventually grew into something more like the hero that history remembered. He was decades beyond that when he fled and disappeared.

Although what I liked about the movie's version of Cochrane is that it recognized that the images we create of the "heroes" of history are always simplified, usually exaggerated, and often outright fabricated. We make people from the past into heroes (or villains) because we need them to be, but that often has very little to do with the reality of who they were as human beings. If Cochrane had been exactly as idealized as everyone in the Federation era believed he was, that would've been deeply unrealistic.

Not to mention that he was kind of a microcosm for humanity. He was a broken-down wreck, much like the human civilization around him, but he still had it in him to become something better and nobler, once he chose to embrace his potential and strive to improve.


That said, I've always had a problem with the casting, because Cromwell was way too old for the part. Cochrane was 85 years old 150 years before "Metamorphosis," which means (if we assume those dates were exact) that he would've been born in 2032, and thus would've only been 31 years old at the time of FC. But Cromwell was 56 at the time.

Nerys Myk June 15 2013 03:07 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
^War is Hell and drinking doesn't help.

Lance June 15 2013 03:18 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Spock Prime is old. His eyesight is failing. It's no wonder he thought Chris Pine looked like William Shatner. Nero stranded him on Delta Vega without his glasses. Same goes with Scotty. Spock didn't realize he wasn't looking at James Doohan, he just heard an accent and put two-and-two together.

Yeoman Basha June 15 2013 04:05 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
I can let this sort of thing go as long as the two actors don't look TOO radically different, or don't appear in scenes together looking too different. This is one of the main reasons why I don't want Kirk Prime in the reboot movies. To see ShatKirk and PineKirk in a scene together would be jarring -- Shatner is quite a bit shorter than Pine and they have different color eyes. What are they going to do, put blue contacts on Shatner? I can't imagine the studio would want to put hazel contacts on Pine.

But as long as they don't appear in the same film together, I can let it go in the spirit of make-believe.

Christopher June 15 2013 05:18 AM

Re: Would Spock Prime think Kirk and a young Kirk Prime look identical
 
Heck, Tom Hardy didn't look that much like Patrick Stewart, even with the prosthetics they put on him and with the lines explaining how the shape of his face was changed by the beatings he got growing up. But ultimately their relative appearance didn't matter, because they were actors just pretending to be these characters, and part of being an audience is agreeing to play along with the pretense and suspend disbelief.

Heck, Shakespeare's A Comedy of Errors revolves around two sets of identical twins, but most theater companies don't have two sets of twins available and you can't do split-screen effects on the live stage. So for centuries, audiences have had to agree to play along with the conceit that two actors looked and sounded identical even when they didn't. It's just part of the contract between the performers and the audience.


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