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-   -   Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=214582)

Greg Cox May 26 2013 06:01 PM

Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
I was chatting about the movie with a friend the other day when it occurred to me that Admiral Marcus seems to have revived Khan for pretty much the same reason that Pike recruited Kirk in the prior movie.

Admiral Marcus seems to think that Starfleet has gotten too soft and civilized to protect the Federation from the Klingons and other threats,while Pike saw in Kirk a certain audacity and devil-may-care spirit that he thought 23rd century Starfleet was sorely lacking.

In retrospect, I kinda wish the movie had done more with the idea that both Khan and Kirk are throwbacks of a sort, and that possibly the oh-so-"utopian" world of the Federation may need a Kirk to shake things up . . . but not a Khan?

So how come Pike made right call, but Marcus went too far?

Discuss.

BillJ May 26 2013 06:03 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)

So how come Pike made right call, but Marcus went too far?

Discuss.

Kirk is rambunctious and still learning. Khan is evil.

Greg Cox May 26 2013 06:08 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8156800)
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)

So how come Pike made right call, but Marcus went too far?

Discuss.

Kirk is rambunctious and still learning. Khan is evil.

Well, there is that . . . .

The Old Mixer May 26 2013 06:09 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Kirk is reckless and a bit of a narcissist, but wiping out humanity isn't on his agenda....

BillJ May 26 2013 06:13 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156809)
Quote:

BillJ wrote: (Post 8156800)
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)

So how come Pike made right call, but Marcus went too far?

Discuss.

Kirk is rambunctious and still learning. Khan is evil.

Well, there is that . . . .

I was being a bit flip there. :lol:

One was recruited to inject a sense of "passion" that was seemingly lacking in Starfleet. The other was recruited against his will to do the bidding of a Starfleet Admiral hellbent on going to war with an edge.

Intent and common-sense is why one made the right call while the other didn't. Kirk doesn't work out, he gets tossed back to a dive in Iowa. Khan doesn't work out and you end up with a genetically enhanced superman on the loose.

YellowSubmarine May 26 2013 06:17 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Pike did not keep Kirk's family hostage.

Greg Cox May 26 2013 06:20 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

YellowSubmarine wrote: (Post 8156851)
Pike did not keep Kirk's family hostage.

I don't know. Have we seen Sam Kirk recently?

Titus Andronicus May 26 2013 11:40 PM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
This is a very fascinating observation. I wonder, honestly, if it'll have an impact on Star Trek 3. After all, the idea of the Federation being too weak to defend itself against potential enemies isn't a new one, but it seems to be a constant in the post-Nero age Starfleet and the Federation is dealing with.

ATimson May 27 2013 12:47 AM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156863)
Quote:

YellowSubmarine wrote: (Post 8156851)
Pike did not keep Kirk's family hostage.

I don't know. Have we seen Sam Kirk recently?

He was in the comics' adaptation of "Operation: Annihilate!".

USS Triumphant May 27 2013 01:48 AM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)
In retrospect, I kinda wish the movie had done more with the idea that both Khan and Kirk are throwbacks of a sort, and that possibly the oh-so-"utopian" world of the Federation may need a Kirk to shake things up . . . but not a Khan?

Demolition Man? ;)

(BTW: Complete aside, but I read Seven Deadly Sins recently and really enjoyed what you did with the Pakleds in there. :) )

Greg Cox May 27 2013 04:17 AM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

USS Triumphant wrote: (Post 8158891)
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)
In retrospect, I kinda wish the movie had done more with the idea that both Khan and Kirk are throwbacks of a sort, and that possibly the oh-so-"utopian" world of the Federation may need a Kirk to shake things up . . . but not a Khan?

Demolition Man? ;)

(BTW: Complete aside, but I read Seven Deadly Sins recently and really enjoyed what you did with the Pakleds in there. :) )

As an aside, thanks! I admit the prospect of writing 20,000 words about the Pakleds was a bit daunting . . . .

Norsehound May 27 2013 04:53 AM

Re: Kirk and (spoiler) . . . peas in a pod?
 
Quote:

Greg Cox wrote: (Post 8156797)
I was chatting about the movie with a friend the other day when it occurred to me that Admiral Marcus seems to have revived Khan for pretty much the same reason that Pike recruited Kirk in the prior movie.

Admiral Marcus seems to think that Starfleet has gotten too soft and civilized to protect the Federation from the Klingons and other threats,while Pike saw in Kirk a certain audacity and devil-may-care spirit that he thought 23rd century Starfleet was sorely lacking.

In retrospect, I kinda wish the movie had done more with the idea that both Khan and Kirk are throwbacks of a sort, and that possibly the oh-so-"utopian" world of the Federation may need a Kirk to shake things up . . . but not a Khan?

So how come Pike made right call, but Marcus went too far?

Discuss.

I can agree with this direction/sentiment... the Federation can't afford to be soft and humane when the Klingons are ready to expand and exert their superiority. I'm still not sure how they became allies of the feds in TNG (oh, right, a tea-sipping contest of honor?) but this isn't the case in TOS. The Feds have to earn the respect of the Klingons and it's not going to happen with a feeble Federation.

On the other hand Marcus was willing to get the big stick ready and strike first before the Klinks decided to. Not sure how well most people justify striking first, even if the Klinks take shooting as the first option for negotiations.

(No don't talk to me about honor, it's not practical and these new Klinks don't seem as honor-obsessed as the space biker samurai of yesteryear).


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