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-   -   So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=214555)

Lance May 26 2013 12:32 PM

So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
On a pedantic note, it should be said upfront that he did use it, as an underscore to the Captain's Logs throughout the movie.

But yes, obviously we know he chose to replace it. I was wondering though, has Goldsmith ever expressly said why he decided to do this, rather than just using an upscaled version of Sandy Courage's TV theme music? Was it a design choice on his part? Did he decide that it suited the movie better to have it's own theme, a more rousing and completely theatrical theme tune rather than the one heard on TV? :confused:

Courage and Goldsmith were pals in real-life (and indeed Goldsmith asked Courage in to help out with the conducting of the TV series theme for the afforementioned Captain's Logs). So I know it probably wasn't animosity on Goldsmith's part... did he ever set the record straight on this?

Belz... May 26 2013 12:52 PM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
Well, I don't know. The two latest Trek movies use it but only over the end credits. I'm not sure it would be sufficiently epic for the movie format.

Christopher May 26 2013 12:54 PM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
Quote:

Lance wrote: (Post 8155642)
On a pedantic note, it should be said upfront that he did use it, as an underscore to the Captain's Logs throughout the movie.

Well, technically, he brought in Alexander Courage himself to arrange his own theme for the captain's log segments (rather than just conducting it as you said).


Quote:

I was wondering though, has Goldsmith ever expressly said why he decided to do this, rather than just using an upscaled version of Sandy Courage's TV theme music? Was it a design choice on his part? Did he decide that it suited the movie better to have it's own theme, a more rousing and completely theatrical theme tune rather than the one heard on TV? :confused:
Well, it's not like there was some longstanding tradition of movie adaptations of TV franchises using the same themes the shows used. Even the 1966 Batman movie, made during the run of the series by the same producers and with the same composer, had a new main title (although it did use the Neal Hefti theme motif at some points within the underscore). And all the Trek sequels only quoted the Courage theme briefly at the start of their main titles before going into their own original themes -- with each different composer creating a new theme, and Goldsmith creating a different theme for each of his TNG movies. As you mentioned, the TMP score did homage the TOS theme to about the same extent that the others did; it just did so in the body of the film rather than in the titles.

So I don't see it as something that needs any special explanation. Sure, it later became a tradition to open the main-title theme with a quote of Courage, but it hadn't become one yet at that point, and I think that's all the explanation that's needed.

SchwEnt May 26 2013 01:54 PM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
^^^ Pretty much. In TMP, almost everything was changed. Might as well ask why they chose not to use MJ's Enterprise or Theiss's wardrobe or the props or sound effects or anything else from TOS. Doesn't really need any special explanation.

Belz... May 26 2013 09:49 PM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8155714)
Sure, it later became a tradition to open the main-title theme with a quote of Courage, but it hadn't become one yet at that point, and I think that's all the explanation that's needed.

A quote from Courage but not from the TOS theme. The very short cues we hear during Kirk's monologue before the theme music is the one that's basically become the Star Trek theme, but the theme itself has only been used in TMP before the reboot, which is why I was pleasantly surprised to hear it over the end credits in 2009.

Christopher May 27 2013 12:40 AM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
Quote:

Belz... wrote: (Post 8157748)
A quote from Courage but not from the TOS theme. The very short cues we hear during Kirk's monologue before the theme music is the one that's basically become the Star Trek theme, but the theme itself has only been used in TMP before the reboot, which is why I was pleasantly surprised to hear it over the end credits in 2009.

They're both part of the main title theme. The theme is the entire piece of music that played under the main titles, and it has two different parts, the "fanfare" under Shatner's narration and the other part, which I think of as the "song" portion (since it's the part Roddenberry's lyrics go with, and is structured like the popular songs of the day, specifically being a pastiche of "Beyond the Blue Horizon" with elements of "Begin the Beguine"). Courage used the song portion of the theme in TMP, the other movies and the TNG titles used the fanfare portion, and Giacchino's end titles use both. And if you look at the credits on the soundtrack albums, they're all attributed as "Contains 'Theme from STAR TREK' by Alexander Courage."

Greg Cox May 27 2013 12:45 AM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
Quote:

Christopher wrote: (Post 8155714)
Quote:

Lance wrote: (Post 8155642)
On a pedantic note, it should be said upfront that he did use it, as an underscore to the Captain's Logs throughout the movie.

Well, technically, he brought in Alexander Courage himself to arrange his own theme for the captain's log segments (rather than just conducting it as you said).


Quote:

I was wondering though, has Goldsmith ever expressly said why he decided to do this, rather than just using an upscaled version of Sandy Courage's TV theme music? Was it a design choice on his part? Did he decide that it suited the movie better to have it's own theme, a more rousing and completely theatrical theme tune rather than the one heard on TV? :confused:
Well, it's not like there was some longstanding tradition of movie adaptations of TV franchises using the same themes the shows used. Even the 1966 Batman movie, made during the run of the series by the same producers and with the same composer, had a new main title (although it did use the Neal Hefti theme motif at some points within the underscore). And all the Trek sequels only quoted the Courage theme briefly at the start of their main titles before going into their own original themes -- with each different composer creating a new theme, and Goldsmith creating a different theme for each of his TNG movies. As you mentioned, the TMP score did homage the TOS theme to about the same extent that the others did; it just did so in the body of the film rather than in the titles.

So I don't see it as something that needs any special explanation. Sure, it later became a tradition to open the main-title theme with a quote of Courage, but it hadn't become one yet at that point, and I think that's all the explanation that's needed.

Note also that each new Bond movie has its own theme song, although they do tend to use bits of the classic Bond theme in every film.

That being said, THE LONE RANGER had damn well better use the William Tell Overture at some point or there will be hell to pay! :)

Belz... May 27 2013 01:31 AM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
By the way I was mistaken: they use the TOS theme at the end of The Voyage Home.

Dantrek May 27 2013 01:46 AM

Re: So, do we know why Goldsmith chose not to use Courage's theme?
 
I think I saw in an interview somewhere that it was Gene Roddenberry who wanted a completely new theme. He had actually wanted Goldsmith to compose the theme for the TV series but he was busy composing for other shows. I think it was in an interview with Goldsmith. I think he had intended to use a bigger version of Courage's theme.


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