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-   -   Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers] (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=213628)

WarpFactorZ May 19 2013 11:47 PM

Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Adm. Marcus postponed the attack on the Enterprise when he saw Carol on board, but went on with his orders once she was removed. She really played no pertinent role on the Vengeance, and ended up being beamed right back.

I felt it would have been a more powerful scene -- and given more meaning to Adm Marcus' convictions -- if he had chosen to sacrifice Carol in lieu of his desire for total war. It would have also provided an antithesis to the theme of "family first." Scotty nullified the attack by disabling the Vengeance anyway, so it's not like she would have been killed. Plus, it would have really revealed how much of a bastard he was.

Nightowl1701 May 20 2013 12:13 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus. Total bastards don't get to rise to the top of Starfleet, even after Nero. Marcus didn't start out a bad guy, and he'd embarked on Section 31 with noble intentions (protect the Federation from another Nero). Even his minimal crew on the Vengeance would've looked askance at a guy willing to murder his own daughter in cold blood.

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!" And Khan and his people were, in Marcus' mind and at that moment, an even bigger threat to the Federation than even the Klingons. They had to go, and if Kirk wouldn't kill 'em or hand them over, hey, friendly fire happens sometimes...

WarpFactorZ May 20 2013 01:22 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

Nightowl1701 wrote: (Post 8119219)
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.

No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey. Irrational fear and paranoia strip us of what it means to be feeling, caring, and civilized.

beamMe May 20 2013 01:27 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

WarpFactorZ wrote: (Post 8119627)
Quote:

Nightowl1701 wrote: (Post 8119219)
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.

No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.

So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?

J. Allen May 20 2013 01:29 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

beamMe wrote: (Post 8119660)
Quote:

WarpFactorZ wrote: (Post 8119627)
Quote:

Nightowl1701 wrote: (Post 8119219)
The point was to show there was a sliver - a tiny sliver - of humanity still left in Marcus.

No, it would have been a much stronger statement to have Marcus be the least human of them all. It would have conveyed the message that, despite genetic engineering and physical and intellectual superiority, the thing that deprives us of our humanity the most is paranoia. They made the point of showing Khan shed tears for his "family" -- a horrible, despotic, murdering family.

So, the contrast of showing Marcus coldly condemn his only daughter to death -- to throw his own under the bus -- in favor of his delusion of an inevitable war, would have completely sent home the point the filmmakers were uncommitted to convey.

So instead of a more complicated, multilayered character, you'd have preferred a cardboard cut-out?

Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.

WarpFactorZ May 20 2013 01:46 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8119678)
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.

The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.

beamMe May 20 2013 01:51 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

WarpFactorZ wrote: (Post 8119801)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8119678)
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.

The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.

"Is there anything you wouldn't do for your family?"

The film had more than just the terrorism/war/drone-theme.

KittyDuran May 20 2013 01:56 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

And it wasn't so much that he wanted a war with the Klingons as much as "there's gonna be one sooner or later, it's inevitable, why wait for them to throw the first punch? Let's get it over with, while we've got the advantage!"
He also had illusions of grandeur in leading the war.

imranbecks May 20 2013 04:20 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Actually, up until the point with her on the bridge talking to Marcus trying to change his mind, I actually thought Carol was a mole sent by her father... I was suspicious of her character at the beginning since I barely knew about her character from TOS as I never saw all the episodes. I thought it was a father/daughter plan to attack the Enterprise from the inside..hahaha

teacake May 20 2013 04:32 AM

Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?

The needs of the many..

J. Allen May 20 2013 07:07 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

WarpFactorZ wrote: (Post 8119801)
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8119678)
Preferably one who can only see in black and white, because those villains are always the best and most well thought out.

The whole point of the story was exactly that: fear and paranoia drive us to question our values and make possibly irrational decisions based on fear. It was a post-9/11 allegory 12 years too late.

So, Marcus is not one dimensional because he saves his daughter... and then proceeds to kill everyone else as the crotchety general/admiral?! Heh. Hardly salvation there.

No, that wasn't the whole point of the story, there were multiple story points in this movie. The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.

DigificWriter May 22 2013 06:42 AM

Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
I can't believe there's actually an argument against Admiral Marcus being a multi-layered antagonist. :shrug:

Mountie1988 May 26 2013 04:23 AM

Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
I loved it when Carol slapped her father. All the power which came along with his rank and ship did not save him from his daughter's outrage.

Mr. Laser Beam May 26 2013 04:29 AM

Re: Adm Marcus: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

J. Allen wrote: (Post 8121307)
The best villains see in shades of gray, and they don't think they're evil in the grand scheme of things. Marcus doesn't think he's the villain, he thinks he's doing what's right. For him, the ends justify the means.

For Khan, he feels justified because he believes vengeance is a righteous response. That is how terrorists think. They believe that what they're doing will redeem society because it is society that has failed them and their standard. They think they're doing good, and the movie makes a point of showing that what you think is righteous and justified isn't necessarily so.

Why does it matter what these people "think"? Doesn't make it true. Doesn't make their actions right. Just because they say they're not evil, doesn't mean shit.

Admiral Buzzkill May 26 2013 04:30 AM

Re: Adm M.: Should he have saved her? [Spoilers]
 
Quote:

teacake wrote: (Post 8120854)
The big question is, if he couldn't have beamed her off what would he have done?

He'd let her die.


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