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Captain McBain May 5 2013 02:58 AM

Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Roughly how strong and fast is a Jem'Hadar soldier? About as fast and strong as a Vulcan?

How would a Jem'Hadar fare in a H2H fight with a Hirogen? The Hirogen was throwing around Tuvok in one episode, so they obviously have massive strength.

Also, would 5 Jem'Hadar soldiers have a chance against Data in an empty room, or should they just beam away as fast as they can?

The Wormhole May 5 2013 03:54 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 8044471)
How would a Jem'Hadar fare in a H2H fight with a Hirogen? The Hirogen was throwing around Tuvok in one episode, so they obviously have massive strength.

The DS9 novel Demons of Air and Darkness answers this very question.

Quote:

Also, would 5 Jem'Hadar soldiers have a chance against Data in an empty room, or should they just beam away as fast as they can?
Depends, which one of them has time to prepare?

Captain McBain May 5 2013 04:25 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 8044645)
Quote:

Captain McBain wrote: (Post 8044471)
How would a Jem'Hadar fare in a H2H fight with a Hirogen? The Hirogen was throwing around Tuvok in one episode, so they obviously have massive strength.

The DS9 novel Demons of Air and Darkness answers this very question.

Quote:

Also, would 5 Jem'Hadar soldiers have a chance against Data in an empty room, or should they just beam away as fast as they can?
Depends, which one of them has time to prepare?

Neither. It's a random encounter.

DS9forever May 5 2013 07:40 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
I would think Jem'Hadar and Hirogen are both stronger than Vulcans.

Timo May 5 2013 09:07 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
We have seen Jem'Hadar essentially "wrestle" with human heroes in "To the Death" (as they parry with their two-handed bladed weapons and use simple muscular strength against that of their human opponents). They do not appear to be any stronger than humans there.

Similarly, they appear evenly matched with Worf in terms of sheer strength in "By Inferno's Light", and we have seen that Klingons do not possess a strength advantage over our human heroes.

Additionally, they are quite susceptible to punches in the jaw or gut, just as susceptible as the human heroes - an issue unrelated to muscular strength, but interesting nevertheless.

The bodily advantages of the Jem'Hadar thus seem to lie in their invisibility (before engaging in combat); in their mass-produceability; and in their endurance on minimal supplies (provided Ketracel White is available). Their average strength matches that of our heroes, who admittedly probably always represent above average strength for humans.

Timo Saloniemi

Melakon May 5 2013 09:26 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
If it's 5 Jem'Hadar vs. Data in an empty room in a random encounter, the Jem'Hadar are probably all armed and Data probably isn't. It sounds like you're working on a role playing game.

JirinPanthosa May 5 2013 10:52 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Also the Jem'Hadar are cloaked and thus have initiative.

Captain McBain May 6 2013 07:44 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Quote:

Melakon wrote: (Post 8047213)
If it's 5 Jem'Hadar vs. Data in an empty room in a random encounter, the Jem'Hadar are probably all armed and Data probably isn't. It sounds like you're working on a role playing game.

There are no weapons involved. I'm just curious if 5 Jem'Hadar could take Data, but the concept now seems laughable, if Timo (Star Trek genius) is correct about their strength level.

Perhaps a better battle would be 5 Hirogen vs. Data or 5 Gorn vs. Data, though I'm sure if Data really went all out he could one-shot either of them.

lurok May 6 2013 07:52 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Someone needs to do Trek Top Trumps.

Timo May 6 2013 12:53 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Let's remember that characters such as Worf have successfully wrestled with individual Borg Drones (and Data shrugs them off with ease, except perhaps in "Descent" where the seeming unease might be more psychological than physical) - yet a group of Drones was able to wrestle Data out of balance and drag him away in ST:FC.

While Data clearly has more strength than any other humanoid-shaped character we have witnessed, five more or less "normal-strength" opponents might plausibly defeat him by the above method. Even if Data managed to incapacitate two of them, the remaining three might lift him off the ground and deny him leverage, then proceed to bash him to bits with blunt objects.

That's another interesting question right there, though: how vulnerable is Data, really? We have seen that the skin around his skull can be peeled off with a hard blow (say, in "Thine Own Self"), but the structures beneath seem none the worse for the wear. We have seen a light machine gun pepper his midbody for several seconds, with no ill effects, so presumably the bullets didn't penetrate. Various explosions have separated his body parts, though, and the simple mechanical force of falling from a height of perhaps ten meters was enough to rip off the arm of another Soong android, Juliana Tainer, in "Inheritance". Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch.

Timo Saloniemi

Captain McBain May 6 2013 02:11 PM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Quote:

Timo wrote: (Post 8049259)
Let's remember that characters such as Worf have successfully wrestled with individual Borg Drones (and Data shrugs them off with ease, except perhaps in "Descent" where the seeming unease might be more psychological than physical) - yet a group of Drones was able to wrestle Data out of balance and drag him away in ST:FC.

While Data clearly has more strength than any other humanoid-shaped character we have witnessed, five more or less "normal-strength" opponents might plausibly defeat him by the above method. Even if Data managed to incapacitate two of them, the remaining three might lift him off the ground and deny him leverage, then proceed to bash him to bits with blunt objects.

That's another interesting question right there, though: how vulnerable is Data, really? We have seen that the skin around his skull can be peeled off with a hard blow (say, in "Thine Own Self"), but the structures beneath seem none the worse for the wear. We have seen a light machine gun pepper his midbody for several seconds, with no ill effects, so presumably the bullets didn't penetrate. Various explosions have separated his body parts, though, and the simple mechanical force of falling from a height of perhaps ten meters was enough to rip off the arm of another Soong android, Juliana Tainer, in "Inheritance". Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch.

Timo Saloniemi

Possibly. But Data also has the advantage of entering super speed. As was stated in the Lal episode, Data's hands can move so fast that a human can't see them. Presumably, he can move them so fast that Jem'Hadar or Hirogen can't see them, either. This would obviously be a huge advantage for him.

Infern0 May 7 2013 07:15 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
The Hirogen is considerably stronger than a Jem'hadar, although the jem'hadar is not weak in itself and is probably the better tactician as it's a soldier in a highly organised millitary, where the Hirogen is a hunter who probably doesn't have as much discipline and training

Jem'hadar vs Hirogen is a tough fight, in a 1 on 1 i think it comes down to who is the BETTER of his own, a strong Jem'hadar first would probably kill a hirogen beta, but a hirogen alpha would kill a weak jem'hadar

Data strength wise is on another level, he has shown phenomenal feats of strength that puts him above any hirogen or jem'hadar that i have seen. In a one on one unarmed fight, he tears either apart.

JirinPanthosa May 8 2013 05:17 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Also Data has no apparent power source, so he must literally create energy out of nothing, defying the law of physics.

And he's made of metals, and thus should weigh much more than a human of the same volume whose density is comparable to that of water, but does not. But if he really is the same weight as humans he shouldn't have super strength, but he does.

Gem'Hadar aren't that much stronger than strong humans. With Hirogen, it depends. If you go by how strong the writers say they are, Hirogen wins over Gem'Hadar. If you go by how they actually came off in the show, Gem'Hadar wins over Hirogen.

5 Gem'hadar vs Data, it really seems if Data is able to see them cloaked. If not they might be able to disable him with a surprise attack.

Timo May 8 2013 09:59 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
Quote:

he must literally create energy out of nothing
The expression he himself uses is that he "constantly recharges".

This probably simply means that he's hooked to a wireless power network, like every other piece of Federation hardware (military or civilian) most probably is, and never needs to plug into a physical socket when aboard a starship or starbase or walking on the streets or dwellings of a Federation world.

Quote:

And he's made of metals, and thus should weigh much more than a human of the same volume whose density is comparable to that of water, but does not.
We don't know what exactly Data is made of. Metals could very well result in a lighter entity than bone, considering that metal support frames such as skulls can be made much thinner for the same strength. Bones or their equivalent (which certain diagrams seen in "Brothers" suggest are part of Data's makeup) in turn can be built porous out of metal basically as easily as they could be made porous out of essentially ceramic materials like bone...

In any case, Data is heavier than water and sinks as told in "Descent" and seen in ST:INS, but a simple flotation aid the size of a standard tire-style life preserver re-floats him; not particularly aphysical by any means.

Quote:

if Data is able to see them cloaked
Data has never really demonstrated senses in excess of those of humans - Soong was probably very careful not to make him superhuman in that, umm, sense, so as not to create undue Frankenstein fears. Data can sort out his sensory input better, though (say, listen to half a dozen musical pieces at once). I sort of doubt this would help in seeing through the Jem'Hadar cloaks, as Starfleet never demonstrated any piece of equipment that would be capable of this.

Timo Saloniemi

R. Star May 8 2013 10:06 AM

Re: Jem'Hadar Strength
 
The wireless power network is an interesting theory... but by all accounts in Time's Arrow he was in the 19th century for several days. Could be his "battery" lasts longer, or there's something else going on.

As for being able to hear well enough he can listen to several musical pieces at once... stands to reason if his hearing is that good, he can hear approaching footsteps too.


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